Rail Balancing

Place to discuss the game balance, recipes, health, enemies mining etc.
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CentricArts
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Rail Balancing

Post by CentricArts » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:36 am

Within the crafting recipe of rails, you require stone, iron sticks and steel. But this to me seems extremely cheap.

1) The actual graphics of the rails have wooden ties in between the rails. But doesn't require any wood to create? I suggest upgrading the recipe to require wood and making rails slightly more expensive to make and more difficult to create within an automated process. The additional wood in the system makes it slightly more balanced as trains can become REALLY powerful assets within a factory.
2) If the recipe isn't going to be adjusted to have wood in order to create the rail ties, I suggest concrete instead. As mentioned previously, trains or general rail systems can become very valuable additions to a factory and to make this adjustment to rails require more attention to create the rails, more space and makes them more valuable.
3) Additionally to the very light expense of the current rails, they only require 1 steel and 1 iron stick in order to create rails. Are iron sticks really necessary in the crafting recipe and why do huge rails require so little steel or metal to create them? To make electronic poles you require 2 steel for ONE electronic pole, but for gigantic rails to allow trains to travel from once place to another you only require one steel?
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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:08 pm

Keep in mind an electric pole is a "tall" structure while a rail is flat. Also it needs to be relatively cheap so to be viable early game.

I like the suggestion to add wood to the recipe though, would finally give this abundant resource a use past small power poles. I use it to fuel all my trains and my stocks keep growing.
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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by Hannu » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:29 am

Good idea. Maybe the game could have two tiers of the rails. First tier could be a lightweight rail with wooden ties and some speed and/or weight limitations. Advanced rail would have concrete sleepers, more heavy rails (more steel) and be free of restrictions. Maybe the first tier track would need one steel, stone and iron stick per one rail (now the recipe gives 2) and advanced rail would take one concrete, two stones (for heavier bank), two steels and an iron stick. Rails could also take significantly more time to give reason to build more interesting production units than just two assemblers.

I think that iron sticks are there just to bring little bit complexity. I think it is a good idea. They represents well many small metal structures which keeps rails on ties.

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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by hitzu » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:45 am

Hannu wrote:Good idea. Maybe the game could have two tiers of the rails. First tier could be a lightweight rail with wooden ties and some speed and/or weight limitations. Advanced rail would have concrete sleepers, more heavy rails (more steel) and be free of restrictions. Maybe the first tier track would need one steel, stone and iron stick per one rail (now the recipe gives 2) and advanced rail would take one concrete, two stones (for heavier bank), two steels and an iron stick. Rails could also take significantly more time to give reason to build more interesting production units than just two assemblers.

I think that iron sticks are there just to bring little bit complexity. I think it is a good idea. They represents well many small metal structures which keeps rails on ties.
And now think about you relaying thousands of them over and over. Or restricting yourself of creating large network before you get good ones. That's not fun.

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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by CentricArts » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:36 am

hitzu wrote:
Hannu wrote:Good idea. Maybe the game could have two tiers of the rails. First tier could be a lightweight rail with wooden ties and some speed and/or weight limitations. Advanced rail would have concrete sleepers, more heavy rails (more steel) and be free of restrictions. Maybe the first tier track would need one steel, stone and iron stick per one rail (now the recipe gives 2) and advanced rail would take one concrete, two stones (for heavier bank), two steels and an iron stick. Rails could also take significantly more time to give reason to build more interesting production units than just two assemblers.

I think that iron sticks are there just to bring little bit complexity. I think it is a good idea. They represents well many small metal structures which keeps rails on ties.
And now think about you relaying thousands of them over and over. Or restricting yourself of creating large network before you get good ones. That's not fun.
This would be a really cool idea, but it would make the seem waaay too focused on trains and make it too complicated for game about efficient factories. But having one format of rail that requires wood at first and one at a later date that doesn't require non-automated recourses is nice idea to implement. It forces the player to research an additional technology in order to make their systems fully automated instead of the attention required to insert the wood into multiple factories to create rails.
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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by Hannu » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:23 am

hitzu wrote:And now think about you relaying thousands of them over and over. Or restricting yourself of creating large network before you get good ones. That's not fun.
I do not see any problems or annoyances. I have no reason to make a large rail network (>10 k rails) before I begin to send several rockets per hour and need very much resources. I have every research done at that phase (except last upgrades and some military tech I never use).

I feel that rails are practically free now. Even when I made a railworld with kilometer scale distances between factories I did not need more than one blue assembler to make rails. Doubling of costs and ten folding of time needed to build a rail would cause no problems for me. I think that rail logistics should be an investment instead of easy and obvious step.

Maybe things are different if someone chooses very poor resources, insane alien density or other extremities, but I think that most players use default settings or even richer deposits and have no problem to produce enough rails.

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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by CentricArts » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:58 pm

Hannu wrote:
hitzu wrote:And now think about you relaying thousands of them over and over. Or restricting yourself of creating large network before you get good ones. That's not fun.
I do not see any problems or annoyances. I have no reason to make a large rail network (>10 k rails) before I begin to send several rockets per hour and need very much resources. I have every research done at that phase (except last upgrades and some military tech I never use).

I feel that rails are practically free now. Even when I made a railworld with kilometer scale distances between factories I did not need more than one blue assembler to make rails. Doubling of costs and ten folding of time needed to build a rail would cause no problems for me. I think that rail logistics should be an investment instead of easy and obvious step.

Maybe things are different if someone chooses very poor resources, insane alien density or other extremities, but I think that most players use default settings or even richer deposits and have no problem to produce enough rails.
I personally try to produce factories that can make anything the player requests and research all technologies before completing the game. It gives more of a challenge and gives me an additional goal for the overall game. But for people with a huge demand for resources, they'll probably end up using rail at some point.
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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by bobucles » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:11 pm

So WHY does rail actually need to be more expensive? Just because a high resource game CAN pay it, doesn't mean it is a good idea for all situations.

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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by CentricArts » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:42 pm

bobucles wrote:So WHY does rail actually need to be more expensive? Just because a high resource game CAN pay it, doesn't mean it is a good idea for all situations.
Because for a system that gives you so much in return and it's too cheap to make. You shouldn't be able to spend so little recourses in order to get literally thousands in return.
Additionally, if it is going to be so cheap to make, at least make it harder for your automated systems to produce so there is an actual development and build up in order to give you a return for the effort you put into it.
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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by Hannu » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:27 pm

bobucles wrote:So WHY does rail actually need to be more expensive? Just because a high resource game CAN pay it, doesn't mean it is a good idea for all situations.
At least I get more entertainment if I have to make work and use long time to get some achievement. But of course I see the problem that different players want to very different things and if whatever thing is made difficult it makes someone's play style impossible or annoying. It may be better to keep everything easy and give possibility to mod things to more difficult or complex.

But in any case it would be quite natural to put wood into rails. Everyone have probably thousands of wood when they begin to make rails (if they have not burned it). And concrete ties could be an alternative to tree huggers.

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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by bobucles » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:14 pm

Because for a system that gives you so much in return and it's too cheap to make. You shouldn't be able to spend so little recourses in order to get literally thousands in return.
But it doesn't. You need to build stations, forward defenses, forward mines and set a pile of stuff to make trains work. Trains are not just the tracks.

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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by SirLANsalot » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:37 pm

CentricArts wrote:
bobucles wrote:So WHY does rail actually need to be more expensive? Just because a high resource game CAN pay it, doesn't mean it is a good idea for all situations.
Because for a system that gives you so much in return and it's too cheap to make. You shouldn't be able to spend so little resources in order to get literally thousands in return.
Additionally, if it is going to be so cheap to make, at least make it harder for your automated systems to produce so there is an actual development and build up in order to give you a return for the effort you put into it.
You NEED those thousands of rails to make rail networks to feed the beast that is your base. They need to be cheap because you need so many of them. Unlike other parts of the game were you only need a handful of the item. Rails you need hundreds of thousands of them. Hell Transport Belts pail in comparison in the numbers needed. Would you rather they went back and put the curved rail back in too? I like the new building system that makes placing rails SO much easier then before.

With the RSO mod as well, rails become a necessity and you will be thanking the maker that they are as "cheap" as they are (by the way, steel is NOT cheap).

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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by ssilk » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:20 pm

Currently the recipe takes 1 iron pole, 1 steel and 1 stone => 2 rails.

If Factorio would be extended to allow many recipes for one produced item, then I would keep it like so and add a new recipe like
2 poles, 2 steel, 1 stone, 1 wood => 5 rails.

So this would be a cool addition I think: It goes much more into mass-production-direction and it would add need for a useless item but not making wood really needed, there is still the old alternative.
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Re: Rail Balancing

Post by henke37 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:04 pm

Factorio is already setup to produce recipes, not items. Otherwise you couldn't do things such as the oil barreling while also making new empty barrels.

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