[0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

This subforum contains all the issues which we already resolved.
Ardagan
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:24 pm
Contact:

[0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by Ardagan » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:13 am

I have repair bot and build power pole, put one power pole at roboport, destroy pole. Repair bots silently ignore that.

Repair bots properly pick up repair kits from roboport. Repair bots properly pick up both repair kits and items for rebuild from provider chests.

SilverWarior
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:23 am
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by SilverWarior » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:40 am

I don't think it was intended for repair bots picking up replacment items from roboport. Only repair kits should go into roboports.

kovarex
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 6918
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by kovarex » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:42 am

Yes, the material space in roboport is meant only for repairpacks, so robots with repair packs can be stored as items again, but these repair packs are not lost, so this is not a bug.
The bug might be, that the player can put non-repair packs there and it could be solved easily ...

Ardagan
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:24 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by Ardagan » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:52 am

Then actually, another issue comes up, but with logistic bots:
Player is a requester chest. If robot picks up item for player, then player go out of range of roboport, then bot hangs up in the air, not moving anywhere. After it runs out of energy, it goes for recharge, but does not enter roboport. Basically this results in 1 robot out of service network and continuous useless power loss.

kovarex
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 6918
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by kovarex » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:56 am

This should happen only when you have no place to store the item (storage chest with space or not fully satisfied requester chest requesting the item).
But when you have storage chest there, the robot will return the stuff to the storage chest and tries to dock in roboport when you get out of reach.

Ardagan
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:24 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by Ardagan » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:12 am

I see that as valid situation. I have only provider chests, I'm using robots to get proper items in invetory, I do not want to spend extra energy for situations like this. Is there a way to return item back to provider chest, or create some kind of priority chest that robots will use as primary for picking up items and put items there only if there's no recipient? (I see roboport as perfect container for that purpose)

kovarex
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 6918
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 am
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by kovarex » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:30 am

Hmm, this is setup we forgot to think about.
It can't go to roboport material, it might be full of different items soon and it can't go back to the provider chest, as it might be filled by inserters in the meantime, I have not a good idea how to solve it right now.

Ardagan
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:24 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by Ardagan » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:06 am

I still think that roboport is the best option. It just must have a random item stack (about 1k items max. Can be less, but that's approximate amount of basic resources I request.).

But there should be one limitation:
If item of this type is needed somewhere it must first come from roboport. In this case the stack will never grow unlimited.

To me, it will be a viable option to make this stack inaccessible, but preferably not totally hidden.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 10430
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Cleaner Bots and ground as storage

Post by ssilk » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:55 am

When there is no storage for that, where should the bots put it into? And when that storage is full, where to put that?


I want to suggest a "cleaner bot". A cleaner bot tries to clean up every item, which is on the ground. Like the logistic bots like to clean provider chests. (Btw: A cleaner bot can clean up blocking items on belts like that, which is very nice, because that enables to create something which causes belt-blocking)
And the logistic bots, when the request they try to achieve isn't possible anymore, let the item(s) just fall where they are.
So the needed storage is the ground. It should be obvious for the player, that the waste on the ground has a reason and he needs cleaner bots. :)

This would be nice, because when building it happens often, that I catch up some ore items and I solve this currently by placing those items in any provider chest and have for every resource a requester chests, which always requests. But like so I can just leave it on the ground or even put them on the ground.

Cleaner bots could clean up destroyed chests.

In missions, they can pick up items, where the player cannot walk to or pick up immense fields of items, or - when introduced - pick up containers.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

Ardagan
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:24 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by Ardagan » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:17 pm

"cleaner bot" is too obscure.

I do see what you want, but still it is hard to understand what is the item on the ground.
Difference from item on belt?
How to define if the item on belt blocks belt or should lie there?
If item falls on belt, but it is not the one that is expected there, how to define that?

I also thought of something like that at first, but it seem to be too obscure and hard to code/configure. There should be easier solution. (read my previous post for example)

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 10430
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by ssilk » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:27 pm

Ardagan wrote:"cleaner bot" is too obscure.
I do see what you want, but still it is hard to understand what is the item on the ground.
Difference from item on belt?
This is clearly defined. An item on ground is not on a belt. :)
BTW: An item is not an entity. Everything, which can be into stacks are items.
How to define if the item on belt blocks belt or should lie there?
If item falls on belt, but it is not the one that is expected there, how to define that?
Huh? Non comprende... If item is not on a belt, it is on ground and may block. And why should there items laying around in the factory? There is no sense in laying items on the ground and not using them. But with cleaner bots this suddenly would make sense.
I also thought of something like that at first, but it seem to be too obscure and hard to code/configure.
Cannot speak for the devs, but this should be very easy. All items are in a list and finding some, which are in reach of a cleaner bot is just a loop through this list. And before the cleaner bot starts, he must look, if there is place free in a chest. And some more things, but when he catches it up and we remove his destination he will also let the item fall on ground.
There should be easier solution. (read my previous post for example)
I read it. I dunno what the Roboport has to do with catching up items. This is like using a motorway restaurant as freight terminal. But the most important point is: what happens, if this is also full? Because this will happen!
That's what kovarex meant with, he hasn't a solution yet.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

JackGruff
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by JackGruff » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:20 pm

I've encountered this problem as well. While a bot is fulfilling an order, the order may no longer be completable and the bot just hovers with its item. It's rare, but it has happened.

My solution is simple, just have the bot take the item back to where it got it from. But what if the chest it got it from is full? The chest that was holding the item reserves that space until the order is complete, then it relinquishes the space. This makes it so that there would never be a situation where a bot is transporting an item that can never be placed again. In other words, until an order is completed, the provider chest still counts the items it contributed as "held".

If the stack of the item the bot just took has reached zero, then a ghosted or greyed out image can appear to indicate the slot is reserved.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 10430
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by ssilk » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:53 am

What if I - as curious as I be - cut the logistic network into two parts while the bot fulfill the requests? Which of the reserved items in the chests can then be fulfilled and what to do if not?
And how should the logistic bot signal that chest, that he is done? And also thinking about the size of that reserving lists in memory and how to handle them: without garbage collection, this lists would need for a big chest (~6000 items) minimum 20-30 KiB. Not to think about the special cases, like when the item is destroyed, because the bot is destroyed or if I just mine a bot and the item is not destroyed and more than a handful of other such things.

Hehe... :twisted:

And to come back to my cleaner bot idea: a logistic bot without energy could just land and the next free cleaner bot would put it into a requester chest from where it could be automatically inserted into a Roboport (provided that we have numbers for the amount of needed bots for that logistic network).
No special Roboport needed: the landed bots and the cleaners create automagically a balance between needed bots and chargeable bots.

Another idea: they could be used to "clean" the wood, or other stuff laying around. They could be used to put waste or whatever into the lakes. They could clean fighting zones from the rests of the dead biters. :)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

JackGruff
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by JackGruff » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:14 am

What if I - as curious as I be - cut the logistic network into two parts while the bot fulfill the requests? Which of the reserved items in the chests can then be fulfilled and what to do if not?
If a bot cannot return the item for some reason, it takes it you. If you are out of range, it waits by the roboport. I think bots should be able to land in order to not use charge.
And how should the logistic bot signal that chest, that he is done?
Through the logistics system, what did you think?
And also thinking about the size of that reserving lists in memory and how to handle them: without garbage collection, this lists would need for a big chest (~6000 items) minimum 20-30 KiB.
6000? You're confusing the reserved space for how much a provider chest can store. Total reserved space for an entire system shouldn't be larger than max all bots can carry at once. For 6000, you would need 1500 bots, with max cargo capacity, in flight.
Not to think about the special cases, like when the item is destroyed, because the bot is destroyed or if I just mine a bot and the item is not destroyed and more than a handful of other such things.
Diagnosis: defeatist


By the way, we need a logistics system overview like the electricity and production views. No, the one that shows up on the right when you mouse over a chest is terribly cramped.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 10430
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by ssilk » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:31 pm

From down to up:

Yes, info per logistic system is needed.

Defeatism: uh. Ok. Perhaps I should not write so late. Sorry, I really won't kill ideas. I try to find the points, which are not working, instead of saying nothing and thinking: ain't never gonna work.

Reserved memory: you're right, the mem is per bot in a network, not per chest.
But again the question: what happens, if you split into two networks, remove the chest or do other stupid stuff? Because the logistic bots is then in another network, he cannot signal anymore, the source-chest is in another network, the bot forgets it,because he can't reach the chest. But when the bot cannot deliver, he has nothing, where he can return, because it was in the other network.

Bots are able to land: well, then we have bots on the ground ... Remembers me to something, I just didn't get it :roll:

Ok. Assumed bots can land on ground and "wait" to fulfill their request. Then it doesn't make sense to wait forever. Even on ground they should need some energy.

... And when they are empty, cleaner bots can pick them up. ;)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

JackGruff
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by JackGruff » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:39 pm

Well, if the system is in need of manual intervention, then it could notify the player. So if a dedicated view for logistics is implemented, then notifications, warnings and whatnot could be shown there. If a bot is stuck in any sort of manner then it lands somewhere and the logistics system simply tells you that there's a problem.

I think the real irritations that stem from the logistics system have always been about feedback. I don't mind if bots are blowing up because they ran out of charge, I mind not being told about it. The same is for bots getting stuck. You don't need to necessarily make the bots smarter, just let me know something is wrong.

Similar issues relating to a lack of feedback have been said of production and mining. How do I know my coal mines are about to dry up or any other mines? The production view could be enhanced with such notifications and warnings or perhaps we could have a view dedicated to miners.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 10430
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by ssilk » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:30 pm

Well, I see you didn't understand. :)

But I don't want to explain. Instead I want to say that instead of special cleaner bots, the current logistic bots can also do the job to pick up lost items from ground. This builds also this self-regulating mechanism.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

JackGruff
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by JackGruff » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:25 pm

It sounds like you want a logistics system that sorts everything out for itself. I honestly think that is crossing the line between what the game should be responsible for and what you, the player, should be responsible for. Are your cleaning bots ever necessary if the player doesn't try to break something?

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 10430
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by ssilk » Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:01 pm

Ever tried to mine a chest with 6000 items in it, when your inventory was full? :)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

Ardagan
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:24 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.8.4] Repair bots do not pick up items from hub

Post by Ardagan » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:52 pm

@ssilk I tried :P

Post Reply

Return to “Resolved Problems and Bugs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: shanemadden, talchas and 7 guests