Piercing rounds recipe should include regular rounds

[aXa]

Hello all,

My suggestion is fairly straightforward:

I think the piercing rounds (red ammunition) recipe should be changed. In addition to the copper and steel requirement, I think it should also includes regular rounds (yellow ammunition) as one of its component.

My thinking is this: Regular rounds become obsolete very early and very fast in the game. I also think it makes sense for a t2 item to require its t1 equivalent. (Red circuits require green circuits, red belts require yellow belts ... etc).

This way, regular rounds would stay relevant for the entire game (Especially if piercing rounds are used for useful combat robots), and adding dependencies like these make the game more interesting and coherent in my opinion.

If the cost of the new piercing rounds would be deemed too high for what it does, we could simply lower a bit the requirement of steel and copper, although i don't think that would be necessary.

What do you guys think ?

[lancar]

I'm.. fairly indifferent about this, I think.
On the one hand, I do usually end up with lots of t1 bullets after a while which have turned obsolete, on the other hand I could just load em up and have the turrets finish the supply off.

So, yeah... I guess either way is fine.

[Adil]

I use a lot of bullets, and requirement of yellow magazine increases iron cost of piercing rounds by almost 40%, that's really bad.
Also, we have a lot of items that become obsolete as the game progresses (burner inserters, burner furnaces and so on), and little concern is given about their relevance. Yet the game hardly becomes less coherent from presence of such short branches of production tree.
Finally, I doubt that irl more powerful rounds are mode by first making weaker ones and applying steel to them.

If anything, bullet production chain might contain more intermediate products (not too much, they're spent like crazy after all) and those intermediates might indeed migrate from simpler product to upgraded version.

[bobucles]

SMG ammo eats through resources super fast. Making the recipe even more expensive (adding yellow ammo practically doubles the already rough crafting time) isn't a particularly nice idea.

Try to focus your nerf posts against the strongest aspects of the game, OP. Like everyone knows that shotgun ammo kicks ass.

[aXa]

You guys have not read my post closely enough, or even at all. This is not about nerfing or augmenting the cost of piercing rounds, it is about including a chain of production to make items relevant through the entire game. It would create a more complex and interesting recipe for the piercing rounds.
For those who worry about the cost increase, I am not saying that this change could not include a rebalance of the ammo cost. Although piercing rounds are very cheap and powerful ATM, but that's just my opinion and really not what is discussed here. I trust the developers to make the balancing of the recipe right.
What I am saying is that there in this game a certain logic present everywhere: t1 items are a requirement to build their t2 counterparts:
Regular belt to fast belt to express belt
Regular inserter to fast inserter to smart inserter
Regular circuit to advanced circuit to processing unit

Etc etc. There even is a color code for it: yellow to red to blue, sometimes green.
And somehow ammo escapes that. That's why I am saying it is not coherent, and I suggest it should follow the same logic, because that's what makes this game so great
Ps: same applies for shotgun shells

[Adil]

Burner inserters don't go into others.
Red inserter doesn't go into blue one.
Steel furnaces don't go into electric ones.
Red science packs are not ingredient of green ones.
That logic is not general rule of the game.

However, thinking about it, apart from balancing issues this change isn't worth arguing about it.
I guess I'll just make another single remark and quit:
Stacking recipes might increase the crafting time drastically, which might lead to player getting stranded without means of defense sometimes. (Those are the ammo of the most common weapon after all.)
(As for something to be discussed not here: neither shotgun nor piercing bullets are too cheap or overpowered, they're the only ones in the mound of available crap, that get the job done.)

[GlassDeviant]

From a simple "reality check" perspective, this makes no sense. Real armor piercing ammunition is not made by combining regular ammunition with extra materials, they are so different that the very concept makes no sense.

From a pseudo-realistic perspective, you would have to disassemble the old ammunition and replace certain components, essentially replacing the bullet and the powder and possibly reinforcing the shell casing in order to make an AP round from a regular one, a huge waste.

Better would be to have some kind or recycling system (a much discussed topic already) that would let you reclaim some materials from obsolete products.

[Gandalf]

I think OP's main point isn't realism but rather that he wants to set up a more “interesting” production chain. Basically the production of armor piercing amo would be more complicated than simple raw materials, but have the advantage that regular amo that already exists doesn't go to waste.

In my opinion that latter point is actually precisely what should happen. Overproduction should should be a waste of resources. A lot of people are requesting recycling for other items as well, and this is no different – it's a way to circumvent the error of having produced too much of a dead end item. I believe that this should absolutely remain an error.

Planning is a challenge. If you make too much of something, resources go to waste. That's how it is with everything and that's how it should be in the game. Don't just set up your factory to produce infinite amounts of everything. Control your outputs. Estimate how much you'll need and set appropriate production limits. That is a much more subtle but also more interesting challenge than just having to fit in another assembler.

TL;DR Instead of asking for outdated products to be re-usable, don't overproduce them.

[bobucles]

but have the advantage that regular amo that already exists doesn't go to waste.

But that SMALL upside costs triple the downside in terms of hassle, resource costs and time.

It is literally better to just let the obsolete tech go to waste. Throw low tech bullets into a turret somewhere and let it be.

There are mods that allow players to either recycle goods, or trade them on a "market" towards new goods. Please consider using them, OP.

[aXa]

Actually, I don't care about overproducing or wasting at all. What matters to me is complex production chains, and including t1 product into t2 recipe (and t2 into t3, etc) is a good way of doing that. It is already what's being done for most of the items with different tiers (as explained many times above with the example of belts). I think it should be the same for ammunitions. it keeps your production chains challenging and that's great. In this game, ressources are infinite and you have to create scarcity by diminishing the size, frequency and richness of mineral patches, or adding a bunch of aliens (Hardmode) to create a challenge. Increasing costs of item in general is another way to add much needed difficulty.

[bobucles]

If resources are infinite, how is increasing the cost of something going to improve balance? The only thing that matters is the relative cost between various goods. Items that give better results for less effort are better than items that give weaker results for more effort. It's a pretty simple equation.

Piercing rounds are fairly expensive for the combat output they give. While they are indeed more lethal than basic shotgun rounds, they'll devour early game resources at an insane rate. High bullet production can actually place an early base in MORE peril as the extra pollution cloud may reach into more biter nests and promote evolution. Making bullets even MORE expensive does not help that situation in any way. The reasoning behind the change is highly questionable, as many items in factorio are either dead end products or directly win out over piercing rounds.

[Rahjital]

There is one resource that is finite: your time. The less efficient you are in using your raw materials, the more time you'll have to spend on expanding your mining operations, and the less you will get done.

Leave the resource cost for the combat rebalance of 0.13, though. What I agree with OP on is that piercing rounds recipe is too simple. It's an advanced product that needs research to be made, and yet all you need to make it is a single assembler next to the main bus. If piercing rounds require basic rounds, their recipe is suddenly two-step. Basic rounds are made faster so you have an optimal ratio to deal with, and you need three resources (iron, steel, copper) for its production. It will make setting up ammo productions a lot more interesting than just the "plop down an assembler, be done" it is now.

[aXa]

At last, someones who understands !

[Marconos]

There is one resource that is finite: your time. The less efficient you are in using your raw materials, the more time you'll have to spend on expanding your mining operations, and the less you will get done.

Leave the resource cost for the combat rebalance of 0.13, though. What I agree with OP on is that piercing rounds recipe is too simple. It's an advanced product that needs research to be made, and yet all you need to make it is a single assembler next to the main bus. If piercing rounds require basic rounds, their recipe is suddenly two-step. Basic rounds are made faster so you have an optimal ratio to deal with, and you need three resources (iron, steel, copper) for its production. It will make setting up ammo productions a lot more interesting than just the "plop down an assembler, be done" it is now.

Your argument doesn't hold. Once one production model is laid out, then from that point on you just plop it down and go on. There really isn't any increased thinking or logic, just a one time annoyance that doesn't really add any game play. I want enhancements that may gameplay more enjoyable not just add tedium.

[aXa]

There is one resource that is finite: your time. The less efficient you are in using your raw materials, the more time you'll have to spend on expanding your mining operations, and the less you will get done.

Leave the resource cost for the combat rebalance of 0.13, though. What I agree with OP on is that piercing rounds recipe is too simple. It's an advanced product that needs research to be made, and yet all you need to make it is a single assembler next to the main bus. If piercing rounds require basic rounds, their recipe is suddenly two-step. Basic rounds are made faster so you have an optimal ratio to deal with, and you need three resources (iron, steel, copper) for its production. It will make setting up ammo productions a lot more interesting than just the "plop down an assembler, be done" it is now.

Your argument doesn't hold. Once one production model is laid out, then from that point on you just plop it down and go on. There really isn't any increased thinking or logic, just a one time annoyance that doesn't really add any game play. I want enhancements that may gameplay more enjoyable not just add tedium.

it is your argument that does not hold. The gameplay is entirely based on the cost and difficulty of each recipe.

[Rahjital]

...What I agree with OP on is that piercing rounds recipe is too simple. It's an advanced product that needs research to be made, and yet all you need to make it is a single assembler next to the main bus. If piercing rounds require basic rounds, their recipe is suddenly two-step. Basic rounds are made faster so you have an optimal ratio to deal with, and you need three resources (iron, steel, copper) for its production. It will make setting up ammo productions a lot more interesting than just the "plop down an assembler, be done" it is now.

Your argument doesn't hold. Once one production model is laid out, then from that point on you just plop it down and go on. There really isn't any increased thinking or logic, just a one time annoyance that doesn't really add any game play. I want enhancements that may gameplay more enjoyable not just add tedium.

But... the whole crafting system is based on that logic. Whenever you have a advanced version of a basic product, it has a more involved production recipe than the basic version. Science packs are like this, circuits are like this, modules are like this, engine units are like this, belts are like this... I don't understand what do you want from the game if you view coming up with production lane designs as a one time annoyance and tedium.

I rest my case, though. More involved recipe for piercing rounds is more consistent with the rest of the game and more fun.

[bobingabout]

The Devs are pro-upgrade (using a T1 item to make a T2 item)

I personally am con-upgrade (An items should probably cost what it takes to build it. You wouldn't build a house out of iron, to then replace that iron with steel.)

So, requiring bullets made from copper and iron, to make better bullets by adding steel, and perhaps more copper, doesn't "feel" right to me. You wouldn't do it in reality, you'd make the better bullets from new copper and steel stright up.

But as for the way most of the recipes in the game work..... Maaaaaybe?

[DaemosDaen]

The Devs are pro-upgrade (using a T1 item to make a T2 item)

I personally am con-upgrade (An items should probably cost what it takes to build it. You wouldn't build a house out of iron, to then replace that iron with steel.)

So, requiring bullets made from copper and iron, to make better bullets by adding steel, and perhaps more copper, doesn't "feel" right to me. You wouldn't do it in reality, you'd make the better bullets from new copper and steel stright up.

But as for the way most of the recipes in the game work..... Maaaaaybe?

I perfectly understand the point you are trying to make I do want to point out that scrap iron is commonly used to make new steel. (Yes I know scrap steel is often used in that process as well) Since this game does not have a recycling component upgrading equipment works to follow through the recycling process.

Also if e want to go down a realism stand point; All our ammo should be made out of lead, and the copper and steel is simply a coating over the lead, Since iron has replaced the lead of real life, then armor piercing rounds would be copper/steel coated over the iron.

Personally it does not matter to me (in this case) either way as long as the time and materials were balanced out (a few less copper, little less time to craft the armor piercing because you have the materials/time from the standard rounds.) I normally use up my standard round shooting rocks..

[ssilk]

I think a recycling-device would be really useful for exact those cases.

I think to mods like
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 93&t=14067 Reverse Factory
(https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 87&t=10247 Recycling Plant (0.11 only))

[Rahjital]

The point of this suggestion is to make piercing rounds have a more complex recipe, though. Recycling machines don't help with that unfortunately.