RTS direction

[Nirahiel]

Here is what I think, in short :

Blueprints, having automated builders etc, YES.
RTS like, definitely NO.

It doesn't fit Factorio IMO, and I've bought the game for what it is atm. I don't want it to become another starcraft-like.
I prefer to run over creepers with my car or burn them with my flamethrower instead of sending units to somewhere.

The only thing i'd agree with is if you could make some sort of way to create an area (made by the player running around, not some sort of click there and there and voila), and then set an amount and a type of unit, and the units created go there and wait for enemies. Much like the little UFOs. That'd be interesting. But definitely no RTS for me.

On the other side, having a throne would be cool, and something even cooler would be the ability to add a sort of 3rd, layer based dimension.
I can explain in a new topic if it's needed

[slpwnd]

Here is what I think, in short :

Blueprints, having automated builders etc, YES.
RTS like, definitely NO.

It doesn't fit Factorio IMO, and I've bought the game for what it is atm. I don't want it to become another starcraft-like.
I prefer to run over creepers with my car or burn them with my flamethrower instead of sending units to somewhere.

The only thing i'd agree with is if you could make some sort of way to create an area (made by the player running around, not some sort of click there and there and voila), and then set an amount and a type of unit, and the units created go there and wait for enemies. Much like the little UFOs. That'd be interesting. But definitely no RTS for me.

On the other side, having a throne would be cool, and something even cooler would be the ability to add a sort of 3rd, layer based dimension.
I can explain in a new topic if it's needed

This is sort of the current direction we are heading for. The player is a central focus of the game with some possible RTS-like elements in the future (like non-trivial fighting robots you mention).

[Imp0815]

Here is what I think, in short :

Blueprints, having automated builders etc, YES.
RTS like, definitely NO.

It doesn't fit Factorio IMO, and I've bought the game for what it is atm. I don't want it to become another starcraft-like.
I prefer to run over creepers with my car or burn them with my flamethrower instead of sending units to somewhere.

The only thing i'd agree with is if you could make some sort of way to create an area (made by the player running around, not some sort of click there and there and voila), and then set an amount and a type of unit, and the units created go there and wait for enemies. Much like the little UFOs. That'd be interesting. But definitely no RTS for me.

On the other side, having a throne would be cool, and something even cooler would be the ability to add a sort of 3rd, layer based dimension.
I can explain in a new topic if it's needed

This is sort of the current direction we are heading for. The player is a central focus of the game with some possible RTS-like elements in the future (like non-trivial fighting robots you mention).

Why not implement it anyways?
Nobody would be forced to get in the command center and build in a free form RTS-Style Camera with ghost-models for pre-placed factory lines and Sending fighting robots across your Outposts and bases.
Also i don't know why people bring up Starcraft as a comparison. Between these two lies like a hundred worlds filled with big creepers.
Starcraft is a fast pasted well balanced and asymmetric esport RTS. I don't see any correlations between a Factorio RTS mode and Starcraft at ALL.
Factorio it at its core a factory resource management building game in my eyes and has very little to do with survival.
the Survival factor seems to me as a good selling point now a days and there are a lots of them out there right now so i think Factorio should focus more on mechanics that makes it unique. Because that's the reason my friends and i play it.
When i want to play a character focused survival game i play Don't Starve.
That is a good comparison - Don't Starve and Factorio. Both games feature a 2D isomeric view with a character centered camera and base building.

The main goal in Factorio is in my opinion to automate everything, so you the player hasn't do all this stuff by hand. So i really want to automate everything. I can automate very much things by now but not everything, and that is the fighting. Well i can defend my base with turrets and walls but with the last update its even harder. I want a way to farm alien artifacts automated, i don't want to fight creepers, i want something or one to do it me - i want to automate it. The easiest way to satisfy this would be to implement a way to produce these artifacts but then the alien base kinda loses it right to exist and that wouldn't be so nice.
I think im not alone with my concerns i play Factorio with 4 friends and they all are not very happy about the artifact farming at the end, they are more like into building a big factory and automate everything. Also i often read about other people in the forum that more like the enjoyment of building a big factory than fighting creepers or defend there bases.
Maybe you just make a survey what people like most about Factorio and then deiced it which way you should mostly put your work efforts.
for Exampel:
Building a Factory = More buildings, more ways to use the factory (trade, markets, automation)
Fighting and Combat = More weapons more armor and more combat mechanics (well you implemented this just well with 0.7.0 ^^)
Exploration = More unique things to look at
etc.

[ssilk]

Good examples. I mean, that this direction is introduced, when you make peace with the natives. You give them something, what they really need and therefore they give eggs. So my idea about this, but who knows, what comes out at the end?

[slpwnd]

@Imp0815
We are aware that a distinguishing feature of Factorio is the building and automation. That is also what the community likes the most. On the other hand we have decided to include fight and survival elements in the game to provide some sort of pressure on the player and motivate him in his building. It could very well ended as a game simulating building a factory in real world (like China). Who knows if it would be better. What I like about the current approach is that is it sort of free. You are not forced to do that or that. You can go out and fight the enemies if you like or explore the world a bit (not much to explore for now though:|).

This release has been heavily focused on the combat since that was the most lacking part of the game. After this gets balanced we will be back on some factory building elements.

As ssilk mentioned there will be a way to play peacefully in the future. Probably via "trade with the natives" way. That way you will be able to get their artefacts and land for some of your goods. When that happens the automation will be almost complete:)

[Imp0815]

@Imp0815
We are aware that a distinguishing feature of Factorio is the building and automation. That is also what the community likes the most. On the other hand we have decided to include fight and survival elements in the game to provide some sort of pressure on the player and motivate him in his building. It could very well ended as a game simulating building a factory in real world (like China). Who knows if it would be better. What I like about the current approach is that is it sort of free. You are not forced to do that or that. You can go out and fight the enemies if you like or explore the world a bit (not much to explore for now though:|).

This release has been heavily focused on the combat since that was the most lacking part of the game. After this gets balanced we will be back on some factory building elements.

As ssilk mentioned there will be a way to play peacefully in the future. Probably via "trade with the natives" way. That way you will be able to get their artefacts and land for some of your goods. When that happens the automation will be almost complete:)

Good good so my automation-phile-needs will get satisfied then...

Well the fighting is really a nice approach to motivate the player but setting goals like the new point scenario you introduced with 0.6.? is also very compelling without fighting.. anyways I'm not saying i don't like the fighting but i don't really see a survival aspect. You just build up a factory for the sake of building a factory at the moment, and you know, for me and many other players this is enough to make me think that Factorio is a very great game to enjoy and fiddle with my production line until i can't think out of assemblers and output per min . China isn't a good example ;P everything in there factories is mainly made by handwork...

So you plan to build in some kind of natives? because trading with the creepers seems very unlikely in any shape or form
How will this work set up a chest at there "village" and send logistic bot there to get a constant flow of resources? Or sending a giant harvester bot to kill all those savages and get the pressures resources out of there cold dead hands (would work for me just say'n)

Jokes aside i really see great potential in this game and you should make the best out of it. I would like to see building space ports like in Startopia where trade ships dock from time to time and offer resources, but I lose the thread here...

The freedom of this game is unquestionable but it hurts me a bit personally when game play parts that i don't value that much gets more attention than the ones i really dig into.(Also I'm really really really disappointed how the new combat robots work you should make them like the logistic robots and put patrol post into the game where these robots patrol from point to point. Just reuse the provider and requester chest code and rewrite it a little).

So now i have explained my self a bit and i hope to read about a cool RTS extension in Factorio in the far future.

[ssilk]

How will this work set up a chest at there "village" and send logistic bot there to get a constant flow of resources?

I mean, everybody, who had/has a pet, will understand, how you can communicate with the natives.

[ficolas]

How will this work set up a chest at there "village" and send logistic bot there to get a constant flow of resources?

I mean, everybody, who had/has a pet, will understand, how you can communicate with the natives.

A pet is not a giant worm that eats buildings D:
Its a fluffy doggy

[ssilk]

Don't laugh.
I think factorio isn't such a bloody Armageddon Hollywood thriller or so, it's a much more intelligent game.
Pets can communicate. Our dog brought his collar, to tell, he wants to go out.
Even this worms will - or better - should have a way to communicate. I mean, they can alarm others, so they communicate. Learn to communicate, learn their "language".

And what can they communicate now? You are making to much bad air. We don't like you. Stop it. Stop it now, or we will kill it. We will kill it. We will kill you.
And what can tell you now? I build this, excuse it, but it makes a bit dirt. I really need to built that. No, if you don't like it, your problem, but I really, really need to. If you fight me, I'll kill you. I protect what I built, cause I need it, and if I need to kill you I will.
Not that much, but much more, than thought, eh?

[ficolas]

So they could... Bark? XD
Jk I think its a good idea
Or maybe another raze that seems more inteligent and controlls biters and worms.
That could also explain why biters and worms are together, and why alien artifacts can be used to research high tech/ make high tech.

[ssilk]

Exactly my thoughts.
There is plenty of space, to develop the natives. Being much, much more than aliens is the target. "Understanding why" is the way to bring million miles of depth into this game.

Edit: my opinion. I'm just user of the forum.

[3LollipopZ]

I quite like the thought that I'm harvesting maggot eggs from the hives to use as my evil research.... much like animal research, but with rather huge maggots and biters.

The worms hang around the biters simply because they eat the faeces of the biters; essentially, that is what they are spitting at you... They think that you are friendly and are spitting up faecal matter towards you, thinking that you are hungry and looking for food.

Oh... what have I just written??? I need sleep

[shade]

I really like this idea step/step for not destroy the original gameplay :

Start the game like now, need to research the builder/fighting robots and give them order by the throne that should be nice if we wan't manage an heavy factory

[Olix]

Hi,

I bought the game today. I enjoy managing the factories, but I found attacking the enemy base in the later part of the first level of the 'New Hope' campaign to be very tedious.

I don't think introducing direct RTS elements is a good idea - instead, how about allowing the player to build spawn points for attack units similar to how the enemy spawns attack units? The units would take (a lot of) resources to build. This way, success on the offense ties in to having a strong economy, and it could happen automatically similar to the non-heroes in DOTA. The player could directly intervene with their own weapons, or concentrate on optimizing their production lines to increase the rate at which their soldiers are produced.

[kovarex]

Hello, thank you for the suggestion.
this level will be very different in 0.8.
In that phase, player can already use the fighting robots, which I believe make it quite fast, when he can afford these and in freeplay, with good economy, the player can build the destroyer robots and modular armor, and can kill huge bases in seconds without a big risk.

[ssilk]

@Olix: Welcome!
This is part of an ongoing discussion.
The latest thread about it is here : https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=5&t=1681

[Nova]

@kovarex: Sorry, but i don't quite understand the fighting robots. How should they help? You can only spawn a few and they are fast destroyed. How do you use them? Which upgrades should the player focus on to strengthen the fighting robots? o_O

[slpwnd]

@kovarex: Sorry, but i don't quite understand the fighting robots. How should they help? You can only spawn a few and they are fast destroyed. How do you use them? Which upgrades should the player focus on to strengthen the fighting robots? o_O

The destroyer robots are very strong. Already with couple of them (~10) you can easily go against a mid-size base. If you have enough of them (~50+) pretty much no enemy base stands a chance.

The distractor robots are useful as well as a distraction to the turrets and biters while in the meantime you rocket-shoot the base. Or in combination with the poison / slowdown capsules.

The defender robots are low-tech, but the ammo upgrades apply to them too. I managed to conquer smaller bases much easily with these.

The destroyer and defender robots are the better the more you have of them. Therefore researching the robot count is a good strategy with these. The distractors don't have this limitation.

[ssilk]

For this who are like me don't be able to manage more than one type of capsule in a fight: it tooks me many lives to understand that all the other robots stuff is only distraction and confuses me with its little but important differences and the only robot which is always useful is the distractor.

Slowdown, poison... I don't count, how often I run in my own poison. Defender: confuse me with its wuseling around me.

Currently I see no other way to conquer a big base as setting some towers (50-100) as rescue,then try to distract the biters and come near the spawners and place some distractors.

And for the devs: the fight is then fun, but the way to this point is currently too long and not clear.

[Ardagan]

Hm, ok. I like to answer the first post of the topic. Will do that again.

1) Builder robots are something I wish was there in late game. Same as adding strategic view. Both ideas make huge sense.

2) Would be awesome to add an option to create "blueprints". So that I can create some stub for the set of building/items I usually place nearby or in the same schema. Lets say I like to have "8 solar plants/1 electric pole/1 accumulator" placed in 9x9 square. Always the same. Becomes pain in later game to lay those out. If I could just create something like "solar factory" blueprint that will be this 9x9 square, I could just place it wherever I want. This will also can apply to Builder Robots that will lay out all this stuff.

3) Fighting units. This game is about automation. I do not want to fight enemy bases. Why not make this game something like: zerg-vs-zerg. Just let me spawn expensive, different units that will fight on their own.

4) As an expansion for fans/programmers you can add an option to program the behavior of robots. (Well, I get some ideas from games Battle Snakes and Grobots) What you can add is:
a) make robots moduled like armor
b) add option to have some proportion of robots: I want to always have 5 ranged for 3 melee robots
c) add strategies: I want to have 5 robots defending my base and 5 attacking enemy base.
d) add more complex strategies: I want to specify gathering points, patrol regions, attack regions. That should be maintainable: I want to have 5 robots patrolling this region. If one is destroyed another one should replace it automatically. I know this base if heavy defence, I want robots to attack in packs of no less than 10 ranged, 5 melee.

5) Maybe add more difference in enemy units. If they follow something similar to 4) then opposing them will be much harder. The only thing is to estimate when in game this should arrive. Probably there can be something like threat factor: the more production you have, the more opposition/attacks on enemy bases you have/the more resources you mine -> the more aggressive/diverse/smart the enemies are. Core points will be
a) Still the same aggression policy overall. Pollution reached enemy -> he became enraged.
b) The more you mine overall (maybe tie this to some exact resource) -> the more chance that enemies will attack even from out of pollution range.
c) The more you mine or offend enemy -> the smarter the enemy becomes.
d) ideas are from Harry Harrison->Deathworld.

Well these are suggestions to make this game macro management and production chains development as it is in origin and try to avoid make it direct RTS or RP game.