Junk

[hitzu]

Since we are on the evil side in this game, at least while thinking that the ecological behaviour is a good thing. I think it's a great for the game. Though I always think that I have a lack of possibilities to be really bad. Yes, we pollute the planet's atmosphere, but in my mind it is so faint that practically can be easily ignored. I think we need somthing phisically impacting us - solid waste and perhaps liquid waste. Tons of it!

In the real world metal processing plants produce large hills of slag that literally change the landscape. Machines generate all kind of byproducts and defective stuff that should be reprocessed or wasted. Also the stuff gets old and brake. The most easy way to deal with it to put all the wasto into a junkyard that occupy large plots of space and of course generate pollution. I think it would be very intresting to manage all that kind of things, It would bring new (moderate) level of complexity and visually would represent the concequences of our actions.

What i propose:

- To add new type of entities - junk. They are just regular items, but in grey or black color and they are totally useless...

- ... unless on the late or mid-late stage of the game player decide to reprocess them into valuable materials.

- To add new output slot in all furnaces, assembling machines and chemical plants purposely for junk.

- Normal slot have a prioroty over junk slot. Inserters use junk slot only when it's full. Player can reduce the amount of junk that can be stored there.

- To add new modules that reduce the chance of defects at the cost of the speed.

- The percentage of defects depends of the tier of the assembling unit, the complexity of the recipe and the installed modules.

- Smart inserters' filters can be applied to the specific scrap or the whole junk category.

- To add new type of storage - junkyards. They are very big (8 to 12 squares in size) fields exlusively for storing junk. They cost minimum resources and they visually grow up while filled with stuff. Due to their nature they are undestructible. They can serve as a specific first line of defence - they attract a lot of biters which love to chew the junk. If left alone they rarely will attack other player's stuff, but if they do it would be a huge throng! In practice big fields of junkyard acts like the biter's bases, but in a more controllable way.

In conclusion

I understand that this would be a huge revamp and all existing player's bases should be completely redisigned. But hey! This is just an idea to discuss. Maybe devs will be inspired somehow, maybe modders will start this project as a mod, maybe this doesn't deserve an attention at all. Who knows? Let's talk about it.

[deepdriller]

The game is complex enough as it is, how on earth do you think anyone could handle additionally having to bother with junk logistics?
Yeah. Go ahead. I wanna see you build a fatory with junk output in mind for every. Single. Entity.
Especially with low-tier tech.

[kiba]

The game is complex enough as it is, how on earth do you think anyone could handle additionally having to bother with junk logistics?
Yeah. Go ahead. I wanna see you build a fatory with junk output in mind for every. Single. Entity.
Especially with low-tier tech.

Some people really likes their complicated logistics stuff.

[hitzu]

They are really one of the first stage technologies that we get that is underestimated now. Anyway I think that the normal output slot should have a priority over the "junk output". The scrap could easily accumulate in the assembler and would go out only when the slot is full. So the player may regularly clean it manually before it could be manageble in automated mode.

Does it sound really complicated?

[ssilk]

What does this suggestion add to the gameplay besides adding more complexity?

[hitzu]

Well, the complexity itself is worth enough to be added, isn't it?
It is yet another aspect that player should take into account. It also changes the way that bases have to be built due to the huge amount of area dedicated for basically the useless stuff. It really visually represent the impact and bring more sence to the actions and decisions of the player, who should choose between many of controversial more or less ecological and logistical paths. And finally it also change the behaviour of biters that could be more interesting and diverse.

Why do people get excited of new recipe chains in big mods like Bob's mods? Is there a big difference when it comes to the waste? It is just another way to play with logistics or am I wrong?

[deepdriller]

Considering my current factory layout, I really- really!- have no idea how to implement two output streams for every single entity on the map.
What I can tell already is that the cost for building a factory would skyrocket.
Also, this would mean that long-handed inserters would be unsuitable for certain tasks.
In short: Complexity is a good thing, but let's not force it.

[hitzu]

Considering my current factory layout, I really- really!- have no idea how to implement two output streams for every single entity on the map.

You can make one and then filter the final output.

Also, this would mean that long-handed inserters would be unsuitable for certain tasks.

For example? In my mind long handed inserters would be much more useful then they are now.

[deepdriller]

Also, this would mean that long-handed inserters would be unsuitable for certain tasks.

For example? In my mind long handed inserters would be much more useful then they are now.

Oh, I don't know. How about any instance where the output is ambiguous? For example, when you need a long-handed inserter to put the products on a belt. It will occasionally dump a piece of junk, clogging up my belts.

[hitzu]

Also, this would mean that long-handed inserters would be unsuitable for certain tasks.

For example? In my mind long handed inserters would be much more useful then they are now.

Oh, I don't know. How about any instance where the output is ambiguous? For example, when you need a long-handed inserter to put the products on a belt. It will occasionally dump a piece of junk, clogging up my belts.

Then you just have to come up with new layout design. I don't see any problem

Ok, I see. It is not well accepted idea. Maybe because it is too radical and game-changing.

[bobucles]

It's not really about being game changing. Junk just doesn't add anything worth being called new. Early game doesn't need obstacles like this, and you haven't covered what kind of value it might add in the mid to late game.

For example junk might be useful as a wild card resource if it can be processed into one of the major raw materials. If the player is low on copper for example they might process the spare junk into that.

Or maybe junk is something that comes from dead biters, as scraps of raw goods they leave behind. This would dramatically change the value of hostilities as enemy action could actually be PROFITABLE and thus a risk a player can encourage to get new resources.

Maybe pollution can be packed into a more eco friendly piece of processed garbage. A reclamation module reduces pollution output, but creates item waste as a consequence.

Stuff like that.

[hitzu]

Perhaps I just like the idea to be clogged and trapped inside the piles of trash and heroically free myself from this trap

For example junk might be useful as a wild card resource if it can be processed into one of the major raw materials. If the player is low on copper for example they might process the spare junk into that.

Yes, I mentioned this in the first message.

Or maybe junk is something that comes from dead biters, as scraps of raw goods they leave behind. This would dramatically change the value of hostilities as enemy action could actually be PROFITABLE and thus a risk a player can encourage to get new resources.

Potentially this would be great. Because now we have to eliminate the danger in order to get alien stuff. It would be much more intresting to keep the constant menace to get that stuff.

I said also that junkyards could attract biters and act like some sort of biters farms that can be very risky making one big field of junk rather than many smaller chunks. That would be interesting managing too. That brings a divercity to the gameplay, that is a good thing on it own, I think.

[TuckJohn]

I agree with (most) everyone here that this should not be added to the "stock" game, but rather added by a mod. I personally would love to have to add "belt un-jamming" stations everywhere.

[ssilk]

Well, the complexity itself is worth enough to be added, isn't it?

No.
If your idea adds just more complexity, it isn't a good idea. Objectively. Measurable.

Why do people get excited of new recipe chains in big mods like Bob's mods? Is there a big difference when it comes to the waste? It is just another way to play with logistics or am I wrong?

Because that people like complex games. But the majority not.

[hitzu]

Ok, let's move this thread into the "Ideas for mods" category, because thinking of it as a mod would be healthier for the discussion.

[ssilk]

On your demand.

[L0771]

Ok, let's move this thread into the "Ideas for mods" category, because thinking of it as a mod would be healthier for the discussion.

And i'm here, i do a lot of useless mods, and i can see your idea has potential, but, explain better, like if i had 5 years old.

- Add a item like junk, ok
- Add a output slot for every burner and assembler, so easy
- If you make a item in a assembler, this production must return a bit of junk in 1 slot and the item in the other slot?
- junkyards... extreme big walls undestructible? but if you build this yard a bit out of your city, all bitters should attack other site, best defense ever... I think isn't a good idea this "wall".

hmmm... junk = bad
what is the good point in this mod?

[hitzu]

- If you make a item in a assembler, this production must return a bit of junk in 1 slot and the item in the other slot?

Perhaps it would be better to just have a chance to produce a broken item. I don't quite sure about ratio, but it seems to me that some recipes produce more, than others. For example smelting should produce 10-20% of the slag. It can be useful as a substitute of stone. Some of the recipes like gears or pipes are very simple and less likely to turn into a scrap, though they are produced in masses so the absolute amount of defects is big enough, but luckily they can be easily resmelted. More complicated stuff has more chance to failure and require technology to be unlocked in order to reprocess it.

- junkyards... extreme big walls undestructible? but if you build this yard a bit out of your city, all bitters should attack other site, best defense ever... I think isn't a good idea this "wall".

They should be passable. They just take a lot of space that player should conquer first. They can be removed if empty, but not destroyed or exploded. In my mind they should act like a magnet to the biters so they would gather near them just like seagulls over dumps. More yards leads to more crowds of biters making them more dangerous. So it would be a good idea to move junkyards far away from the base or reprocess junk by maximum.

hmmm... junk = bad
what is the good point in this mod?

More stuff to deal with = more fun. ^__^
Anyway this mod would bring new recipes, new strategies, new ways to build factories, so it is not as bad as it could seem.

Perhaps this mod would require long smart inserters, otherwise some layouts would be very complicated or even impossible.

Also I have an idea of piling up stuff. Namely raw materials and junk. If that sort of item was on the land then it turns into a small 1x1 pile - a simple container that can store only that sort of items and has one slot (with that one item). Collecting it will destroy the pile. If there is enough place around then two full adjacent piles combine and turn into 2x2 pile with 8 slots, then with the growth these two full piles combine into 4x4 pile with 64 slots, then into 8x8 piles with 512 slots (good luck to fill them ) and then maybe two of them can turn into a monstrous 16x16 pile with 4096 slots if this is even possible in this game
It would be the most effective way to store materials in the game.

[L0771]

i'm sorry, i pass of this mod for now, i have a lot of mods in my list... :/

[hitzu]

Well, I understand, especially since it didn't well accepted.