Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

[Lupoviridae]

I rather like the idea of a bullet/magnet train. I don't think it quite fulfills the design for this thread, but it would be awesome to have a way to upgrade the current rail system. Diesel engines seem so low tech.

Bullet rails: Laid over existing rails, and capable of carrying electricity
Bullet Locomotives: Run on electricity, faster acceleration and top speed.
Smart Cargo Wagon: Larger storage, ties into circuit network

The rails could carry electricity and both wire networks.
Normal trains can run on electric tracks, but gain no benefit from them.
Laid over top of the existing rail network.
I like this idea a lot.

[ssilk]

Animation: This seems to be your main objection, and I suppose it is a matter of opinion. Personally I think if you take the logistics robot model, blow up the size 10x, and send it whizzing across the screen it would look fine. If you're far out from your base you won't see 95% of it's flight path anyway.

Hm.
I try to explain it differently: Many other strategy games have something like "Click on a unit, open it's view in a new window". Factorio has this feature, too, but not finished yet. You can see that currently in two mods: Fat Controller https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =86&t=4504 and Command Control - Remote viewing and management https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 86&t=13338.

But I see also the changes into the lua-api and this will be a lot easier in 0.12.

That means for planes - even if you cannot enter a plane - that you might have a view to planes. And this view will not be rendered faster than 1/60 second, because that is in most cases the maximum speed for your monitor.

What I state is that you don't need to have an opinion: It will look bad, if you move the background more than one tile per 1/60 second. The eye is physically unable to follow that movement (unless you have completely zoomed out). In other words: It is a misuse of the game-engine to move entities that fast.

Replacing trains: If each flight of the "plane" requires direct player input, it cannot be automated by it's very nature, meaning it would be impossible to replace trains.

Why should I built that. Even in the simples version I have planned here, the transport was automatable.
For me the trains, planes, ships, cars or other types of vehicles and transporters are like the type of transport, that can be seen in games like OpenTTD: An vehicle can follow a more or less fixed route. It cannot say "Today I want to go to outpost B, cause they have too less basic circuits", if outpost B is not on the route. That makes also no sense, because the type of logistic, which the logistic bots follows, can only work in limited areas.

Cheating: you would need to physically run to the location you want to call the "plane" to, so I'm not sure I understand this at all.

Yes: Like rockets.

The player would not be able to ride the plane, it would be more like a mobile roboport (that also carries items)

As I tried to explain it above: That makes no sense. The basic game-mechanics enables to "overtake" an entity, see it's "view".
It would be quite illogical, to disable that for planes and only because of this quite questionable feature, that planes (or trains) can bring only emergency transports.
It would also be illogical to have two types of planes (or trains): Some, that could be entered and others, that are not. And - before you say "but not for robots": I'm not sure, but think with 0.12 it might be possible to enter also the view of a robot.

Personally I think the idea of a "plane" (aka a flying roboport) would work perfectly for building outposts outside of the range of your logic network. For personal resupplying I can see rockets being useful, but they don't work for any sort of large transfer.

Well, where is the difference? Resupply your personal inventory and resupply the ability to built stuff? I don't see the difference.

I see planes as some kind of "normal" transport of items, like trains, but faster and much less stacks for transporting. That is the kind of "normal supply" an outpost needs to survive, like repair packs, turrets, walls, and such stuff. But it can be replaced by trains, but planes work much faster, for complicated landscapes, islands, big lakes etc.
I see planes also as player transport. Transport of rare items. Exploration (as said: When you are inside of a plane). Such things.

You want something that no matter how busy your base is, this tech is either given priority thus everything else ceases to allow it to function properly or somehow doesnt interact with anything else other then the player entity and the potential structure that houses it.

Not exactly. The idea was, that you need to prepare and that the preparation is worth it's effort. Which means it is expensive, but then it enables you some new kind of game-experience; in this case building up new outposts within 3-6 minutes, instead of 30-60.

Pocket portals. When you manufacture this item you get a pair of them and they are linked together by some sort of frequency. There would be a structure that charges the items up (cost of use would be power as well as items needed to make it) when it is fully charged, perhaps there is a special chest you place one of the pocket portals in that is covered by your logistics network so when you are in a pinch, thousands of tiles away, you can request what ever items you need (the chest only has 4-6 slots) and after X amount of time, you activate your pocket portal and grab the items and discharge all of its energy thus making it a single use.
Im sure there are major issues with this idea but im sort of thinking them up on the spot. Ill let you find the flaws and shoot em down

Well, hehehe. that was the reason, why I started this thread: We had this type of discussion in the suggestions board and I wanted to move that to general: this discussion about teleporting of items already. The most forum members said, that a simple portal would make things too easy. As a conclusion of that I suggested the pneumatic delivery, which is in general the same as the rocket-mail system as part of this thread: A component, which must be transported back. The "cargobox". (Or in the context of the pneumatic delivery a "pneumatic capsule".)

The reason for introducing cargoboxes is also much more interesting: I believe, that the game needs something like this. Cargoboxes will enable a complete different gameplay, which is the about specializing, centralizing and globalizing the production.

If a player is on the ground, not moving, they when a plane passes over (depending on the speed) it might not be rendered. If a player is riding a plane, they the plane could be rendered, because the delta between the player and the plane is 0. Now if the plane was flying very slow over head and the player on the ground, then the plane should still be rendered.

And if a player is sitting in the plane and flying at max speed, everything is flirring around. You can see that already with trains: You are so fast, that you cannot tell, if you are moving backwards or forwards. Now I try to imagine that with 10x more speed.

I think that players should be able to fly the plane themselves like a car. If one player can fly over a lake because they made a plane, well so what?

Well, then because he made a plane and is now in the plane and moving around. Which takes his time and can be a lot of fun. But not, when he already walked the whole way and now needs to fly the same. And that not only once, but over and over. You need not to make 1 or 2 outposts, you want to make 20; or maybe 50.

And I wrote it above: It makes no sense not to be able to automate that and no sense to enable driving a vehicle non-automatically without sitting in it: That would enable really nasty strategies.

Planes would have a similar mechanic to trains (which I guess might be a bad thing?) You have air ports instead of train stations, and a plane can have a schedule. It would fly around to all the different airports.

Yes. This is similar to many other transport games and compares quite good to reality. That kind of traffic could be automated. But if you want to

To produce a plane (it would be relatively different depending on the plane), you would need a few parts. The wings, then engines, the the rest of the aircraft. Biplanes would need a different type of wing then a jet for example. Air traffic control centers could require 25 processing units, and "super-fast" jets, 50. Biplanes 5. So why not make a "super-fast" jet and then just use that instead of a biplane? Well it's stall point is much lower than a jet so it can be used for inspections of biter bases, etc.

Much too much complicated for what I have in mind.

[chris13524]

If a player is on the ground, not moving, they when a plane passes over (depending on the speed) it might not be rendered. If a player is riding a plane, they the plane could be rendered, because the delta between the player and the plane is 0. Now if the plane was flying very slow over head and the player on the ground, then the plane should still be rendered.

And if a player is sitting in the plane and flying at max speed, everything is flirring around. You can see that already with trains: You are so fast, that you cannot tell, if you are moving backwards or forwards. Now I try to imagine that with 10x more speed.

What would a plane do in real life? If you fly 20 feet above the ground at 3000 kph and you are looking out the window, all you would see is just blurr. I don't understand why that is so bad. I understand your moving and centering a players view concept.

Well, then because he made a plane and is now in the plane and moving around. Which takes his time and can be a lot of fun. But not, when he already walked the whole way and now needs to fly the same. And that not only once, but over and over. You need not to make 1 or 2 outposts, you want to make 20; or maybe 50.

And I wrote it above: It makes no sense not to be able to automate that and no sense to enable driving a vehicle non-automatically without sitting in it: That would enable really nasty strategies.

I don't understand these two paragraphs, can you please explain it better?

[ssilk]

What would a plane do in real life? If you fly 20 feet above the ground at 3000 kph and you are looking out the window, all you would see is just blurr. I don't understand why that is so bad. I understand your moving and centering a players view concept.

Well, just play a game like OpenTTD, create a very fast train/plane and fly with it. That is a bit blurring. But, wait: They are only 10% of the speed, that is needed in Fatorio!
This will not just be blurring. it is 10 times faster.
Ok, yes, it is also a bit of personal taste. I don't like it, but I've also reasons.

I don't understand these two paragraphs, can you please explain it better?

Of course. You are standing at your new outpost and you suddenly know: You forgot the butter!

So the current way is to walk back, take the butter, walk to the outpost, use butter.
This can be made a bit faster, if you have the car. Or even faster, if your have a train.

But this isn't what the player needs here: He doesn't want to walk back. He can do that several times but after some time it is just enough. that was one of the reasons for this discussion.

Now with the plane you say: Ok, you don't need to walk back! You can fly back!!
I just ask: Where is the difference?

[chris13524]

Well, just play a game like OpenTTD, create a very fast train/plane and fly with it. That is a bit blurring. But, wait: They are only 10% of the speed, that is needed in Fatorio!
This will not just be blurring. it is 10 times faster.
Ok, yes, it is also a bit of personal taste. I don't like it, but I've also reasons.

There isn't much you can do about the blur of the landscape, that is just what happens. Because you cannot zoom out enough to make sense of anything, I suggested the radar so it gives the player something too look at as well as being able to navigate.

Now with the plane you say: Ok, you don't need to walk back! You can fly back!!
I just ask: Where is the difference?

In that case, you would call a rocket too drop it off.

I think we are starting to branch into two different transportations, emergencies and regular. Plane would be regular, and rocket would be emergencies.

[malokin]

I love the idea I've seen in a mod : rocket delivery. It's so totally badass
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 32&t=12424

Transport of items
- Over large distances : Check, the distance limit could be any, there could even be tiers of research to upgrade rocket range.
- Small amount of items : Check, can't put many items on a rocket, but you can build several of them for quicker delivery.
- Very, very fast : Check, rockets are faster that any actual transportation system.
- Very fine control of what is transported : Check, in the mod, you can request whatever you need, as in a requester chest.

O.O holy sheet they made my idea into a mod. I hope the author updates it when 0.12 comes out.

[vampiricdust]

But this isn't what the player needs here: He doesn't want to walk back. He can do that several times but after some time it is just enough. that was one of the reasons for this discussion.

Now with the plane you say: Ok, you don't need to walk back! You can fly back!!
I just ask: Where is the difference?

I believe the proposed idea was an air drop. You can only fly the plane by going to an airport.

Something like this. Small & fast, small payloads. Doubles as a small bomber & long distance relays.

[ssilk]

I think we are starting to branch into two different transportations, emergencies and regular. Plane would be regular, and rocket would be emergencies.

O. K. maybe the thread title is a bit iritating, but when I read the discussion, this should be clear: This is more about the emergency aspect.

[SHiRKiT]

Another thing is to allow people to lay tracks in a better way.

[therapist]

@ssilk

If we are sending resources into orbit in the endgame, it would cost very little rocket fuel to purposely deorbit some of those supplies and land them on planet at any location of our choosing. Whether we crash or parachute after reentry is moot at this point. I know we community members many times help come up with ideas for the devs and modders, but I think we would be silly to assume that resources fired into orbit for the planned endgame are up there forever. Our 4th transport type may already be planned, even if it has not been planned and explained to us yet by the administration.

This basically means the planned endgame content, in addition to getting us off this planet, may double as a space station we can use as a final "orbital logistics system". Hell, the devs or modders could even add the ability to drop some serious ordinance on those scum sucking bugs from space and save us all some trouble.

[kiba]

Orbital superiority basically means that the biters are doomed, but I wonder if there are enemies in space?

[ssilk]

Our 4th transport type may already be planned, even if it has not been planned and explained to us yet by the administration.
This basically means the planned endgame content, in addition to getting us off this planet, may double as a space station we can use as a final "orbital logistics system". Hell, the devs or modders could even add the ability to drop some serious ordinance on those scum sucking bugs from space and save us all some trouble.

You are right. Could be like so. I don't care, cause if it is like so, then it is available after the new rocket silo has been built. But the ideas with the rocket-mail is available, when rockets are available. Much, much earlier!

[Yinan]

So, it's been some time since last something was posted here.... but since at a recent thread this thread got linked, I might as well post something.

I'm suggesting teleportation.

Of course, this needs to be a certain way to not be completely overpowered or something like that.
The idea would be that it takes for one some time to "charge up" the transporter, and for another that you can only send a limited amount.

So, as an example, let's just make it a 3X3 block, called the "teleporter" with internal storage. Everything in this storage can be teleported to another teleporter (only works if enough space is at the destination).
Additional, this should require quite a lot of energy. Of course it shouldn't just shut down your base completely, so it would work kinda similiar to accumulators, i.e. you have a maximum input amount for energy and a maximum charge. One charge is needed to send Items from one teleporter to another teleporter.
That way you could also automatically adjust the time it takes for the best case (Charged needed divided by the maximum amount of charge that can be added as set by the maximum input).

There could be an interface kinda like with trains, just that you can only choose one destination (which, as mentioned above, has to be a teleporter). That way you could set one teleporter to transport stuff inside of it to another place.
In addition, with this interface you should also be able to tell other transporters to teleport something to this transporter.
That way, if you're somewhere else, you could use that as a way to instantly summon something from your base if you just place a teleporter at your destionation, which only needs very little energy as it doesn't teleport anything itself but only serves as a receiver.

[MalcolmCooks]

I haven't read through this whole thread because it's 16 pages long. But the best ideas I've seen:
A fast VTOL aircraft. Harrier jump-jet for example, has a top speed of somthing like 1000 kph, which is much faster than trains. At that speed I think it could cover 500 chunks in less than a minute (correct me if my calculations are wrong). I don't know if VTOL was mentioned by anyone else, but it makes sense for this kind of game, so airports do not need large runways
Dropping from orbit: This gives another use to the rockets. You can load a cargo pod with items, put it in a rocket, send it into space. The items are stored in an orbital station. Then the station fills a cargo pod with requested items, drops it in the directed area, and the cargo pod can be re-used.

[ssilk]

Just for information: 1000 kph is 278 meter per second. The airplane would take 5 seconds for 1000 meter. Yes fast enough, but that plane could be barely seen, because you will generally have only one frame to see it. But well, it don't needs to be realistic...

The satellite idea has a problem: It comes much too late in game to be useful.

The teleporter idea: Well, that is also mentioned many times in this thread, it's a possibility, but I think the balancing of this is quite difficult.

[MalcolmCooks]

The satellite idea has a problem: It comes much too late in game to be useful..

agreed but I like it as another use for rockets

[chemicalemon]

IMG_3081[1].JPG (1.56 MiB) Viewed 6815 times

got the game about a week ago and i suck. but ive played 20 hours and am having so much fun!!! just go the talk because i have trouble with all the spawners (it spawned me a load of them). the talk can be very helpful but when there is over 500 small biters, spitters, and medium bimters, the talk even with explosive shells has trouble plowing though them. it would be so cool to see a late game-end game vehicle that is stronger then the tank. d

[Neemys]

What's your map settings ? Seem like your "enemy base" settings is not on default (medium) but instead higher. That's why there is so many.

Speaking of "vehicle" there was that posted by a dev some time ago. :



(source : https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-120)

It's not to crush enemies but still cool

Why not something flying and firing missile ? ^^

[CMH]

Would love some new tanks, maybe an easier way to switch between explosive and the other type of ammo.

Also different cars. You have the basic car, but would like a truck (maybe the same speed as the basic car with larger inventory. Great for setting up outposts/etc), a fast-car (I know there's a mod out there with this, maybe make it run on light oil?), hydrofoil? (for travelling across bodies of water). Freight boats would be a nice addition too. We've already got fish, so you could easily add a danger element with killer fish in the water.

Lots of possibilities to add into vanilla, but could easily make mods to add them. If only I could code...

[Koub]

[Koub] Merged topic into older and same subject topic.