Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

[Koub]

Well the rocket I had in mind is obviously not ridable, but nothing prevents it to be automatable : as long as something can be available at some place, provided via a provider chest mechanism, and requested from somewhere else with a requester chest like mechanism, you can automate.

[ssilk]

@vampiricdust: Well, that is definitely not this system. This transport type is thought for cases, which make no sense to automate. That is the usage of it: Bringing stuff to a point, because you cannot automate this transport (yet).

Read above for "ropeway", which is - in my eyes of course - exactly pointing into this direction you are missing here. But discussing it here would be off-topic (I already said too much about it).

[vampiricdust]

Rocket to chest delivery is rather odd work around no? I think the expectation of near instant delivery is too much. The rockets in the game for the launcher have a rather short range. Rockets to go farther would be a lot bigger, plus have to carry more than explosive payload. They would have to be along the lines of cruise missiles at least. Now if we're talking from the space platform, then rockets are the way to go.

One could say that trains is an upgraded idea of belts. So when I think of this kind of transport, I think of what could be thought of as an upgraded idea to bots. That is the bases for my thinking.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mail
Fascinating read by the way....

[ssilk]

@vampiredust:
There is nowhere written, that the items are delivered to chests. The transport is

Code: Select all

 1 stack of items ----> 1 stack of items in cargobox ----> cargobox with mounted rocket ----> lift off ---->
         cargobox landing with parachute ----> cargobox works as active provider ---->
         cargobox is emptied by bots ----> empty cargobox on ground cleaned up by bots (*)

There is also nowhere written, that the rocket have a limited range (maybe we need a little bit bigger version of the rocket, but gameplay-wise this isn't needed)
A space-plattform comes to late, you need this type of transport much sooner.
I'm also not going with your opinion, that trains are upgraded belts. Railway is a complete transport system on it's own. But yes, if you take the definition such wide, this can be viewed as a upgraded bots network. Or maybe it is the former bot network? Who knows? But, yes, it is a bit related.

I really like your link to the rocket-mail. I think this is a good name for this transport-type. Rocket-mail... the name explains nearly everything.


(*) there is also nothing speaking against, that the rocket remains as a "rocket-hull", which - like the empty cargobox - can be collected, brought back and refilled. I think this is part of balancing, how this exactly works.

[SHiRKiT]

So, in mind comes three things:

- Rockets that one time use and relatively cheap (compared to #2). Emergency stuff.
- Rockets that are somewhat reusable and more expensive (compared to #1). 5th transportation system. Express transport.
- Something that is better than current rails, allows players to ride and it's not as fast as rockets.

And here are my thoughts on #3

- Highway train tracks. This would avoid traffic jam issues in the rail network, and solve most of the long distance travel stop-and-wait because another train joined the track.
- Better signals. The chain signals are really cool, but they would not enable this.
- Planes. This would be my favorite transport system. Would enable the 4th transportation system to be rideable, pretty fast and ultimately allow further map exploration!

[ssilk]

Nice list. I think #1 and #2 are just about balancing. I would not say "If we want it so, we need to make it so". It needs to be balanced, cause we cannot know every detail.

And I think your thoughts about highway train tracks: Well. That would just repeat existing game, add more speed and so on. This can be modded and for me such mods doesn't feel balanced. But that is my personal opinion.

Planes on the other side... well, that might be an idea, but I think to OpenTTD: You can play planes instead of trains, but in my opinion the planes are just boring.
And when you think about it: The bots are like planes. They just fly from A to B and a plane would work more or less similar. So why not just having bots, that can fly longer distances and a bit faster? And then you see suddenly, that such "long range bots" are still working like bots, which is also also boring.

I think new transportation systems should introduce new mechanics and not repeating/extending existing (*) .

(*) Which is the case for this rocket-mail system or for the mentioned rope-way.

[kiba]

And when you think about it: The bots are like planes. They just fly from A to B and a plane would work more or less similar. So why not just having bots, that can fly longer distances and a bit faster? And then you see suddenly, that such "long range bots" are still working like bots, which is also also boring.

I think new transportation systems should introduce new mechanics and not repeating/extending existing (*) .

Planes can be different. Here how they can be:

1) They can't feed off the electric grid and require aviation fuel. They also happen to guzzles A LOT OF FUEL.

2) They need long runway, except for helicopter and stuff. However, helicopters and other VTOL are slower.

3) Can operate outside the logistic network. But they requires air traffic control so they don't collide midair.

4) Different type of planes are needed for various operations. You need a tanker if you want to fuel midair. Bomber type for dropping shit ton of bombs. Air superiority fighters for contested airspace. Helicopters for fast insertion and extraction of assets.

5) radar for finding enemy air units, directing SAM, scrambling fighters. You could even have AWACs patrolling the sky.

6) How else are you going to drop airbrone infantry!?

7) Surveillance and reconnaissance.

[Takezu]

Well i think you will almost always end up extending existing sytsems, because there in place. The ropeway will look different but it uses the same system getting filled bringing stuff from a to b, the rocket will look different, it will based on the same priziple. A transporting system will be a transporting system, and with a good transporting system in place, a good not a perfect, it's easier to extend it rather then ditching and inventing it anew.

And honestly thats fine, why inventing the wheel a second time, rather then refining the exsiting one.
It would be somewhat counterintuitiv to throw all overboard and start from scratch.
And in the end coming with something up that maybe look different and new, but will mostly follow the same basic mechanic.
Well transportation is after all bringing something from point a to point b.

And for a system that is primarily set for a purpous of senden items around, all whats needed is in place, logistics, circute network, energy consumption mechanics. there is not much to introduce that i'd find. Maybe a sytsem based on individual item weight rather then stack size? possible but it would had to be compatible and therefore is it worth the effort. New fuel types maybe liquids? Why? that would be no new mechanic in the first place only a new face for the same mechanic, meaning rather then using an inserter i use a pump for the same purpous? Dosen'T changes a bit in regards to using something with stored energy up to get work done. Worth the effort?

Or am i missing the point? did you mean something else rather then mechanic?

And regarding planes are boring, i find rokets boring, that would there validity as transport vehicle for emergencys not compromise.
Objektivly Planes are as valid as any thing else on the table. And even more so if i think about lakes that seem endless or Woods which can take Hours to get a damn fu... railtrack through and their frequent existenz in a common map, a plane without those problems would make an easy to setup fast late game transport vehicle, but on the other end limit in cargo, for long distances. As any other Aircraft for that matter, a helicopter would fit as well, maybe more then a plane.
Boring shouldn't be an exclusion criteria, thats personalpreference. I'm sure one or another will find longrange bots more interisting than fireworks

[Lupoviridae]

Here's my take on the matter.

From this thread I think it's clear that what were looking for it some sort of bulk, on demand, single use system. I agree that having a rocket delivery system us a bit too much like a teleport, its not in the factorio spirit to expect things delivered instantly. Here's my proposal, going off my original quadcopter design with a few modifications.

At main base, you have a CarrierDrone port, where a drone sits inactive. You run out to build an outpost and place a request beacon. The request beacon functions sort of like a blueprint, using advanced circuits/processing chips, something expensive that persists like a blueprint for multiple uses. The beacon is programmed with a set of requested items. For example a mining outpost beacon might include a stack of drills and furnaces, etc.

So you drop the beacon at site, and it signals your CarrierDrone to fill up. Logic bots at your base fill the Drone with all the requested items, then it takes off, flying at a good clip, to hover directly over the beacon, where it acts like a combination roboport/chest, carrying a load of construction robots and the requested items.

Since individual beacons would be programmed you would't have to worry about forgetting items in a request, like "oh crap I forgot to order a stack of belts, time to waste another rocket." You could have a mining outpost beacon, one for defense outposts, one for inventory restocking, etc. To return the Drone to home base, simply pick up the beacon off the ground. The drone flies back to port, and logic bots remove the extra unused cargo.

[kiba]

Here's my take on the matter.

From this thread I think it's clear that what were looking for it some sort of bulk, on demand, single use system. I agree that having a rocket delivery system us a bit too much like a teleport, its not in the factorio spirit to expect things delivered instantly. Here's my proposal, going off my original quadcopter design with a few modifications.

Helicopters are more energy efficient than quadcopters afaik. Reason we use quadcopter because they're easier to control.

But scaling them to bigger size is a problem. Realism dictates we use helicopters rather than quadcopters.

[Klonan]

How about this.

You build a big BIG cool looking rocket in the base, not a military rocket, a SPACE ROCKET

which you fill up with JUNK (whatever you want) and send it to space.

Later on down the line, you're chillin out somewhere far away, and you're like, "darn i need some junk"

So you place a rocket beacon chest thing, open it up, use logistics menu type thing to request some junk (on the side it could show a list of available stuff), after putting in your order, hit 'REQUEST' or 'ACTIVATE BEACON' button, rocket in space starts its descent.

The beacon gives an ETA based upon time of day and position in orbit (just a rather random amount of time between 45 and 180 seconds or whatever)

Times up, rockets lands, ON THE BEACON, dumps all the junk you wanted into the chest. Then if you got a high class rocket with advanced highly expensive rocket engines and other technology your rocket can take-off again and go back to space.

If you got a low-class burner rocket it can just self-sacrifice after landing.

If you're really down on money, call in an orbital drop crate, lands on the beacon with parachutes, junk = delivered.

But the main point im getting at, is that it isnt just, request stuff and stuff is delivered instantly. Its, think about what you might need. Invest in rockets to place what you need into orbit. and only then, can you 'instantly' call down a rocket full of junk.

Its nothing like random magic teleportation. Its a realistic, gameplay driven mechanic, designed to allow long range delivery, with an appropriate investment cost.

Rockets aren't free.
Rockets aren't instant.

But Rockets are Cool.

[Takezu]

Rockets are metalsheats with funnel and a sh... load of fuel ^^ don't know if thats what i call cool

The thing with planning in advance is, i can easiely fail, and that musn't even be your fault, just bad luck with rng.
let's say for instance spare turrets, you can shoot 200 into space, may never use them -> waste, or you shoot carfully 50 and by what ever attack you need suddenly much much more -> bad luck?
Even if deterministic, i've got more then one time suprised by things i thought wouldn't matter, because they never did before. last map i'Ve had for the first time the problem that biters ignored the turrets and instead chewed on the rails. Thought up to that point that would never happen due to the close proximity of the turrets, well the more you know. Things you never account for, or that are quite costly to account for by that matter like shooting a given number of Roboports up in case one might be destroyed in an outpost. Unlikly that it happens but nonetheless possible.

And it's useless for things like repair packs or something in that regard. Maybe even for turrets. it would be way to costly in the long run sending any given number up into space and suppling bases over that way.

Yes if you planned for that case an it hits you its an emergency backup, but if i hat the choice i'd would have the Sending base on the planet rather then in outer space.

on the otherhand the target beacon and different tiers of rockets are good ideas. Foremost the singel and re-useable rocket are a nice idea.
And the beacon idea for ordering is great, solves the "how to order" in a good manner.

[ssilk]

I mean, the point of this suggestion with rockets is, that it is really, really fast. And it prevents misusing the transport for "everything", and adds a clever distinction between "normal items" and items, that can be used for rocket-mail: That way, it bypasses the need to have filters, complex limitations, complicated distinction between items, that keep in the area and items that can be used for delivery, that all is not needed. I think, this is really a point, which alone makes it more useful.

The rockets can only be that fast, if we don't need to load the items into fixed stacks. I mean an inventory of stacks, which are inside the entity. Like wagons.
That is the advantage of an idea with rockets: It's a stack of items mounted on a rocket. That makes the transport completely different to other existing transports! It is ready, before it is needed and it can be unloaded in the moment, when it touches the ground.

I also don't see, why this should not cost some and can be only used once. It is so fast because of that. That also prevents the system to be misused (because it costs some). But I also said: This is part of balancing; which also makes this sexy from development point of view: You can implement it with the basic functions, and if the rocket can be reused or not is just a change in the entity-definition in the lua-control. That is for example not the case with planes/heli: they are principally not destroyed, when delivered. Rockets can, or cannot, or can be partly destroyed, there are endless tweaking possibilities, which might also attract modders.

I like, that the logic of this rocket-transport is really easy: Either a cargobox is available, or not. It cannot be simpler. If available it can be loaded, but only one (which avoids locks). The logistic is really easy understandable, which with a plain/heli is not so easy, because both needs to return immediately (a good question is then: To which airport should it return to? We have the same problem with the bots now, they are gathering at some roboports only), cause the plane is much more expensive; but the cargoboxes don't need to return soon, cause they are not so expensive that it really hurts.

Well, I know of course, that (using cargoboxes and dropping down into the cargo-zone) can also be achieved by plane/helicopter, but ... I like the rocket idea more, because I think producing planes is much more complicated (I assume it needs a motor and so on), target of this is to make the things easier, not more complicated. I also like, that it would be relatively easy to handle, it works like the small brother of the logistic system.

Edit: Think also about, how expensive the cargoboxes are, until they are filled. For example if you forgot some lasers, you need to request a whole stack. In the early and middle game this is quite expensive and maybe you don't have that much yet. But it is relatively easy to request some walls, or amunition. One stack of wall/magazines are by far not so expensive as lasers. So this is not influencing the basic gameplay too much: You still need to plan much in advance, you need to think forward, but after the middle game you have so much stuff, that this is not longer hindering you to create your ideas. Before it was just repetition, now this rocket-mail will avoid it, cause you can concentrate more about what you want to build and don't need to think about supply so much. That is good, cause it changes the gameplay slightly into a direction, where creativity is needed, and not how fast you can built stuff.

A plane/heli is alone from the artistic point of view a big project, that is no reason not to do it, but I think also, that planes/helicopters in Factorio are not good for Factorio, because of the strange point of view (straight down). It is not 3D, it is 2D, looking like 3D. This can be already seen with the bots, that this is not looking really perfect and it will be more complex, cause the plane must be logically fly higher than the bots - the devs said some FFF ago, that the new rocket base was a problem, cause it lifts off just upward, which looks eventually strange. See also OpenTTD and others: flying planes looked even there always a bit irritating, even if that games are in isometric 3D.

And finally I think, that Factorio should enable the player to play every type of map, no matter how bad the map is. This is one step to enable this.

[ssilk]

So you place a rocket beacon chest thing, open it up, use logistics menu type thing to request some junk (on the side it could show a list of available stuff), after putting in your order, hit 'REQUEST' or 'ACTIVATE BEACON' button, rocket in space starts its descent.

Sorry for repost, but - I overread this. I like the basic idea, because it is in principle the same as my rocket suggestion: The requestable items needs to be ready, before they can be ordered. They cannot be used for anything else then - it is - as you say it "realistic".

Which I don't like is, that it needs big rockets. I want it earlier. Small rockets.
And I still like this cargobox idea for this, because it prevents effectively in the early/middle game to send just a box with 50 lasers into space, without using it.

[Lupoviridae]

My main problem with rockets is that I don't see how they can NOT be game breaking. By late game a player has enough resources to say, shoot 1000 of every item into space. Then you can (almost) instantly call whatever you need to any spot on the map. At that point you might as well just make a teleporter and make it expensive to use, the end effect is the same on gameplay.

[Klonan]

My main problem with rockets is that I don't see how they can NOT be game breaking. By late game a player has enough resources to say, shoot 1000 of every item into space. Then you can (almost) instantly call whatever you need to any spot on the map. At that point you might as well just make a teleporter and make it expensive to use, the end effect is the same on gameplay.

Well isn't that what you WOULD want in a late game tech like rockets? They aren't cheap, but if you build enough of course you can make them 'game-breaking'. You could make the same argument with roboports, late in the game you can just build 1000 roboports and build anything you like. I do think you underestimate how well they can be balanced, and the nature of rockets is that any increase in payload requires a greater than proportional increase in rocket size...

Rockets also play well into the 'space stage' of the game, rockets can be used to ferry building equipment and resources to your space infrastructure.

The end effect of rockets is vastly different to that of teleporters. Rockets can easily be tiered, with varying payload sizes, rocket costs, alongside research investments, supply chain and logistical headaches.
A teleporter you would put one down, and it would use electricity to make things move. From all perspectives it is an almost entirely different suggestion.

[vampiricdust]

A plane/heli is alone from the artistic point of view a big project, that is no reason not to do it, but I think also, that planes/helicopters in Factorio are not good for Factorio, because of the strange point of view (straight down). It is not 3D, it is 2D, looking like 3D. This can be already seen with the bots, that this is not looking really perfect and it will be more complex, cause the plane must be logically fly higher than the bots - the devs said some FFF ago, that the new rocket base was a problem, cause it lifts off just upward, which looks eventually strange. See also OpenTTD and others: flying planes looked even there always a bit irritating, even if that games are in isometric 3D.

Yet there's already a plane apart of the campaign, an item exists for it already, and seems to be at least have been planned already.

There is nowhere written, that the items are delivered to chests.

No, but if rockets are only used for player delivery, I think their scope is too narrow. No other transport in the game is so narrow in usage.

There is also nowhere written, that the rocket have a limited range (maybe we need a little bit bigger version of the rocket, but gameplay-wise this isn't needed)

I was referring to the rockets already in the game which have a small range. To make sense, these mail rockets would need to be more expensive than the rockets used as ammo due to their range & cargo.

I'm also not going with your opinion, that trains are upgraded belts. Railway is a complete transport system on it's own. But yes, if you take the definition such wide, this can be viewed as a upgraded bots network. Or maybe it is the former bot network? Who knows? But, yes, it is a bit related.

It's not so much my opinion as the way I organize things in my head. Trains extend the range of belts even though you can technically just use belts without ever needing trains.

Planes on the other side... well, that might be an idea, but I think to OpenTTD: You can play planes instead of trains, but in my opinion the planes are just boring.
And when you think about it: The bots are like planes. They just fly from A to B and a plane would work more or less similar. So why not just having bots, that can fly longer distances and a bit faster? And then you see suddenly, that such "long range bots" are still working like bots, which is also also boring.

Everyone likes what they like. I'm a huge fan of bots. Though honestly, I would have loved to have ground based bots like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWsMdN7HMuA rather than flying ones, but oh well. I think a plane would save people from building bot networks that are ridiculously oversized & put a lot of extra work for the bots who have to go a lot farther than they should. I find bots & planes a lot of fun because setting up any network of automated transportation is what I have wanted from games. A rocket that only shoots stuff to me is useful, but boring as you would set up a couple launchers & never really bother with it again. Then you have these cargo boxes or parts of the rocket that you have to carry around with you until you can get them back to the main factory again. Rockets to me sound like more clutter for your inventory and require no planning or logistical management. Although, without bots, using the rockets would be a nightmare as how do you use belts to dynamically get what you want to your launch pad without logistic bots? You'll be relying on bots heavily. Might as well just extend the bots range with longer ranged drone planes.

I really like your link to the rocket-mail. I think this is a good name for this transport-type. Rocket-mail... the name explains nearly everything.

Thought you would, while I may not agree on putting mail rockets in, I do like the idea & thought you'd enjoy that bit of history.

[Spoco]

Personally, I don't think there's a need for this type of transport. If the trip to your outpost takes 5 minutes by train in one direction, then you've already spent a great deal of time constructing that train track, and doing the entire trip just by sitting on the train is going to feel fast. Besides, if you forgot something and you have to go back, you'll learn to remember and not forget next time, or at the very least learn to check your inventory during the first minutes of your next 5 minute trip to mitigate the setback. And I think it would make the effort seem wasted if you could just travel back and forth instantly without using the train track that you just built.

That said, I would be open to things like train engine upgrades, even if only for personal transport. Maybe a faster kind of train engine, that can't have wagons or maybe you could connect your power armor to the train engine and make it go faster by utilizing fusion power slotted in your armor as long as you are sitting in the train. edit: Speeding up only some trains would be problematic with other traffic on the same tracks, however.

If teleportation is done, I think it should work only for player characters, have some kind of a cooldown period (bending space-time here, need to wait 10 minutes or something catastrophic could happen) and only work one way (instant return to base, usable only once every 10 minutes?), or the destination endpoints should be ridiculously expensive to build and power hungry (say 50MW constantly or while "charging" before use?). Maybe it's a kind of remote->local transporter, and you only carry a transponder/remote controller with you, that activates the system in your base to "beam" you(r coordinates) back there.
At least you could save one trip that way and (optionally) if you really wanted to, you could construct another destination endpoint in your outpost, but it would be costly and still wouldn't allow you an instantaneous & always available transportation between point A & B.

Also, hello and I love this game.

[ssilk]

My main problem with rockets is that I don't see how they can NOT be game breaking. By late game a player has enough resources to say, shoot 1000 of every item into space. Then you can (almost) instantly call whatever you need to any spot on the map. At that point you might as well just make a teleporter and make it expensive to use, the end effect is the same on gameplay.

This is exactly the wanted effect. Now here comes my way again into game: With rockets, that need bases (source-target on surface) you don't have the problem that strong. Because at one time you can use only one pair of rocket-launcher and drop-down-zone. This limits the number of transfers as effective as it does with the number of bots in a logistic network.

Yet there's already a plane apart of the campaign, an item exists for it already, and seems to be at least have been planned already.

Planned, item, yes, but no entity.

There is nowhere written, that the items are delivered to chests.

No, but if rockets are only used for player delivery, I think their scope is too narrow. No other transport in the game is so narrow in usage.

The transport range for this is nearly endless. Call it global. It has nothing to do with the range of rockets as a weapon. If this is too confusing we can have a second rocket. But gameplay-wise it really doesn't matter.

I was referring to the rockets already in the game which have a small range. To make sense, these mail rockets would need to be more expensive than the rockets used as ammo due to their range & cargo.

You cannot know that yet. It depends on too many factors.

I'm also not going with your opinion, that trains are upgraded belts. Railway is a complete transport system on it's own. But yes, if you take the definition such wide, this can be viewed as a upgraded bots network. Or maybe it is the former bot network? Who knows? But, yes, it is a bit related.

It's not so much my opinion as the way I organize things in my head. Trains extend the range of belts even though you can technically just use belts without ever needing trains.

Well, your opinion. My opinion here is, that after a length of about 500 tiles (more or less), belts are by far too slow and eat up too much items, until you get some. Read https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... ch_case%3F
I think the criteria to decide this is, that if you make a PvP and one player uses only belts and the other also trains the first player falls so deep behind the second, that it never can be reached, even if the first player is playing Factorio since years and the second only some days.

Then you have these cargo boxes or parts of the rocket that you have to carry around with you until you can get them back to the main factory again. Rockets to me sound like more clutter for your inventory and require no planning or logistical management.

My plan was, that you don't need to pick any of those items up. The bots do that for you....

Although, without bots, using the rockets would be a nightmare as how do you use belts to dynamically get what you want to your launch pad without logistic bots? You'll be relying on bots heavily.

Where is the problem? You forgot, that with 0.12 you can have the pocket bots with you. And if not: Well, it is still much faster to pick up the items instead of running home and back.

Might as well just extend the bots range with longer ranged drone planes.

Possibly. But as I said: such planes are nothing else than big bots.

Personally, I don't think there's a need for this type of transport. If the trip to your outpost takes 5 minutes by train in one direction, then you've already spent a great deal of time constructing that train track, and doing the entire trip just by sitting on the train is going to feel fast. Besides, if you forgot something and you have to go back, you'll learn to remember and not forget next time, or at the very least learn to check your inventory during the first minutes of your next 5 minute trip to mitigate the setback. And I think it would make the effort seem wasted if you could just travel back and forth instantly without using the train track that you just built.

You are right and wrong. When you speak from the early or middle game: yes.
When you speak about emerggencies: no. And when you speak from the end-game: absolutely no.
You are right if you speak about planning ahead. Taking care of the space in your inventory.
But you are wrong, if you think this task makes fun after 50 hours. It doesn't. At some point you just want to built something. Or finish stuff.

You are right: Constructing train is great. You are wrong: I need to built a train to get there.

If teleportation is done

Well, teleportation is - as mentioned - an idea, which the devs are thought about. But that is transportation inside your inventory. Not automateable.

[vampiricdust]

There is nowhere written, that the items are delivered to chests.

No, but if rockets are only used for player delivery, I think their scope is too narrow. No other transport in the game is so narrow in usage.

The transport range for this is nearly endless. Call it global. It has nothing to do with the range of rockets as a weapon. If this is too confusing we can have a second rocket. But gameplay-wise it really doesn't matter.

Wrong quote me thinks. Just my expectation of such a rocket. I've thought a bit on rocket mail and it would be interesting to make things actually sendable automatically. If players want to abuse the system, let them. I don't get why you want something so overpowered but yet so restrictive it's not really something you'll want to use much.