Discussing the (missing?) 4th type of transport!

[Lupoviridae]

What if the quadcopter/airplane carried with it a stack of construction robots? It gets loaded up at point A, flies to the construction site, then all the robots fly out and place everything. Cuts out unloading and speeds up the process a bit. The aircraft becomes more of a drone carrier than a direct cargo ship.

[ssilk]

@Smarty: Well, but that is - as you said - high tech. I see it as an ultra-high-speed transport-system, that can replace trains in the very late game. Maybe it is needed then, but till then we need something, that enables to built this one fast.

For the needed purpose I fear it is a bit too much afford?



@Lupoviridae: Ah, yes, this idea of "Self-Moving roboport" I forgot to list in the initial post. Good point!

The pros are:
a) it is sexy.
b) it can look great. Maybe some big shadow comes in like an UFO-shadow in Independence Day and then the bots swarm out and built a whole site within minutes.

Well, there are points against it:
a) it takes time to fill this thing with the needs, cause you cannot know what you need, before you don't blueprint it. No, really, I think the new entity (whatever) needs to have been filled before it is released (because requested anywhere).
b) I think it is extreme high-tech, same argument as above.
c) we will get with 0.12 something similar, the personal roboport.
d) it needs to "return" somehow to get filled again.

[Takezu]

Well i can find a Masstransporter, i can't find a low quantity transporter.

The Mass transporter is ther yes, but for bringing supplys on regulary basis, it's not the method of choise is it?
Yes it should be faster, but not with a emergency deadline, for regulary low quantity supplys i dont need the speed of light.
The only time i would need an express transport under one minute would be under heavy attack.
But other then that 2 minutes beat a 8 minute trainride also by far.

Time isn't of the essence, in a map with 70 and more hours, one or to minutes make really no difference on regular basis.
For emergencys like a big pulk of neighbors wrecking havok, yes then time is of essence, because such a post can easily be lost.

We are talking about 2 different things, naming it the same. Your rocket should be requestet and be there yesterday, my aircraft should be programmed and
take some traffic from the rail. An Alternativ, costly but reliable through set programming. Bringing the stuff thats needet to keep an outpost running in daily buissness.
Not chrashing in when the first debris lieing around.

Time is relativ. It lies within the eye of the viewer, i don'T see a reason for such a deadline, as said, in maps that last for serval hours, days and who knows how long, what difference maks it if my repair pack comes in a minute or two. Time only matters if its an emergency.

As regarding the optimizations, if i may go a bit off topic: Yes i'm looking forward to it as well, i have a crappy mixer as computer calling himself laptop, In my modded bases i run around atm at 30 UPS in my vanilla Base i hit 40UPS but dropping because im far from done with it. ATM i hold my outposts really small and i'd like to build factorys conectet by trains and something else, where the trains would make the volume, as they perfectly do and the something else would handel the spare parts like ammunition and Spare Turrets and alike, know what i mean.

[Smarty]

@Smarty: Well, but that is - as you said - high tech. I see it as an ultra-high-speed transport-system, that can replace trains in the very late game. Maybe it is needed then, but till then we need something, that enables to built this one fast.

For the needed purpose I fear it is a bit too much afford?

maybe something like a tunnel bore.
you select a location and it will go there. or have a drawing system that allows you to draw the path it needs to take

[Koub]

The only thing I feel wrong with the pneumatic transport si that you'll have to build the pneumatic pipe all the way from start to end. What's the point, then, you could achieve same result with rail and train.

The reason why I defend the rocket idea is the "quick emergency very long range, small cargo" aspect of it.. If the goal is just to set up a regular transporting route that will just be faster than trains, I'd say "why ? just add more trains". With the rocket idea, I try to fill a need that just cannot be fulfilled with actual game options.

[ssilk]

Well i can find a Masstransporter, i can't find a low quantity transporter.

The Mass transporter is ther yes, but for bringing supplys on regulary basis, it's not the method of choise is it?

You mean repair packs and so on?

Yes it should be faster, but not with a emergency deadline, for regulary low quantity supplys i dont need the speed of light.

This is a very good question, cause I also forgot to mention this in the first post.

I mean: yes, we need it. I know, it can be supplied by train only. I built that type of supply in different variations. You need currently some wires and it takes a while, but you can built supply trains, that are filled only with the items you need at the target.

That works, that is no question.

But it takes so much time! Because when you need it, the train or whatever has just started in that moment and then you need to wait until the train has returned back and that can take some minutes.

In the beginning I thought that would be O. K. because meanwhile you can do other things. But this non-continuous game-play is on the long run really not good, because it kills somehow the fun, if you know that you now cannot continue to built here and (again) need to change to a different part to continue there, what you have begin 1 hour ago.

So this is a rule in Factorio: If you are going beyond some distance to your factory-center, you need to wait for the supply.

There is one way around it: if you supply your outpost with everything it might need.
I also played this variant up to a gigantic size, but the problem here is, that it takes so much resources, because you need to supply, even if you don't need it. And even then: IF you need something, it is always to less. And you need to wait again, until the supply is refilled.

So the answer is: yes, we need it, not because the game-mechanics needs it, but to keep the fun high with growing factories.

The only time i would need an express transport under one minute would be under heavy attack.
But other then that 2 minutes beat a 8 minute trainride also by far.

Also a good point: You don't need it really hard. I think it is important, that Factorio can be played without this. Then it is just a slower playing.
But belive me or not: Waiting 1 minute or 8 makes in Factorio a big difference. With a minute or below I can life somehow. I can place other blueprints. Clean something up, make a plan in my head and so on. That makes sense. 8 minutes not. In 8 minutes I need to change my current work. This is a game-killer on the long-run.

Time isn't of the essence, in a map with 70 and more hours, one or to minutes make really no difference on regular basis.

Agreed, but see above, with the time it kills the fun and it is so difficult to manage.

For emergencys like a big pulk of neighbors wrecking havok, yes then time is of essence, because such a post can easily be lost.

Introducing new game modes is one reason for this discussion, because - and that makes the rocket-idea so sexy - you can turn this of course around and send items from B back to A, if you already have brought the needed ingredients (rockets) there.

[Klonan]

The reason why I defend the rocket idea is the "quick emergency very long range, small cargo" aspect of it.. If the goal is just to set up a regular transporting route that will just be faster than trains, I'd say "why ? just add more trains". With the rocket idea, I try to fill a need that just cannot be fulfilled with actual game options.

Well the need is already there. Say you're out in the field... taking out nests without mercy, and you suddenly run low on capsules and ammo? Call down a resupply package/rocket/dropcrate from orbit! Rather that than spend 15 mins walking back home (Factorio walk of shame) just to pickup some defender caps. You could also throw in all your junk (artifacts, wood etc.) into the rocket, and it will take it away for you, back to base/orbital base etc.

[roman566]

What would really be nice (and is missing from the game) is a low tech armor that ONLY increases movement speed, no armor bonuses whatsoever and low durability to keep people from charging bitter nests with it. Usually I am rushing for PAMKII not because I need shields to deal with bitters, but because I am sick of walking slowly around larger bases.

[Takezu]

Koub more trains aren't an answer to everything.
Every Railsystem has its limits, and somtimes is a complete overhaul for more capacity is just not possible.
That aside, it dosen't necessarily makes it faster, more trains means more possible traffic jams, just throw more at it won't work.
If a train gets hold up by another train, of which the possibility exists an every junction, it won't work out, a train coming to a hold underway,
needs much time to get back to pace.

And for real, why throw more trains out if your cargo need is somwaht around 2 stacks.
Doens'T make much sense to me.

If you want to send repair packs and/or ammunition around, you don't need 1500 packs on track ... or 3000 bullets.
The Emergency aspect of the rocket is fine and good, and as said i'm not oppossed to it.
But emergency and low quantity transport are not the same thing, and for both a need.

Ssilk yes that is what i meant, sending repair packs and spare turrets/ammo to outposts for supply.
Doesn'T defeat the idea of the rocket in anycase, even good planed supplys can come short under heavy Neighborhood riots.
But there ar also the little attacks which drain constant on supplys.

And on that regard it's not really the time that matters, more that it is automatable and works in cooperation with the logistic Networks on both ends.
Meaning that it can befilled by the system at starting point and emtied (if needed) at the destination.
Someone might be saying you could als build a complicatedt wire thingy for that, but tell the truth, is it worth it to build somewhat like that for only getting some repair packs and a few spare turrets to the ar... of the map. I seldom find my self with enough space to extend my Station with out trouble to beginn with.

Regarding eventuall or sure to come game modes, i don't know anything, thats a scape i didn't thought about.

In the end i think strongly there is a need for both, a highspeed emergency backupsystem like the rocket, for holding the Post,
and maybe a bit slower but highly automatable supply concept, for things of which you just don't need a Cargowaggon full of.
And in that regard the problems an extra train might introduce to your Rails.

[ssilk]

And in that regard the problems an extra train might introduce to your Rails.

Yeah, but that is a completely different case. Let's see, what the new circuit network enables in 0.12 and then this issue can be targeted.

[Takezu]

Well i don't think the circuit network will help me much if my trains are on stop and go becuase i've a bottlneck that i can't reconstruct. Like living on an penninsula surrounded on three sides by water, great for defense, not so great if you try to get a growing number of trains in and out.
It's like with the streets in great citys, if they are overcrowded even the best traffic controle comes sooner or later to it's limits.

[SHiRKiT]

Ok, so for me I see a few things over here:

- I agree that long waiting removes the fun.
+ For me, it IS an issue with building outposts. I ALWAYS forget something in my 6 cargo wagon supply train to build outposts. And when I need to go back, it takes a WHILE, and sorry, but after the 100th trip, it gets a bit boring.

- Emergency and super-fast deliveries should be possible.
+ The rocket idea solves a lot of those issues. Getting your stuff in under 20 seconds while being far away is a cool feature.

- Trains aren't the answer for everything, unless you are a train maniac.
+ I tried myself to create a 4-way train system, and it works, but I literally had to destroy everything I had in my rail system, from the ground up. And I still faced issues because I can't set the inner tracks to be "high-speed-never-stop-on-it" tracks. I do not know how to solve this issue.

- Long distance fast speed transportation systems can be achieved by other ways.
+ I use a lot of mods, and in one of them I have the possibility of building higher speed trains. I needed high-speed tracks as well, so that the trains never stops on those tracks, like a "highway" for trains.
+ Planes as described can also work very well. They should be X times faster, but cost X² times more fuel to maintain the system, to give a balance (the X² is just a random number. )

[Takezu]

X times faster for X² fuel thats not how the world works.
Thay should consume more fuel no question, but let the chruch on the villageplazza.
The fuel consumption for double speed should lay somwhere around double +/- a bit for weight differences. Even if weight don't plays a role in the game by itself
But squaring it is not maintaining a system thats nerfing the idea into oblivion without afterthought.
Look at your dytech higspeedtrain, or bob logistics MK2/3 Train not sure which of them, it takse somewhat around 1,3Mw for approximatly double speed, a plane with same speed would have the same relative fuel consumption.
Quadrature isn't the answer to everything, those thing rally out of hand shortly behind Zero.

Your highspeed never stop track is a elusiv dream. With the current signaling it's futile as sons as the block contains a crossing. There is no gurantee that the train there gets priority and therefore would continiue without stopping. If the priority determines another train to go first, thats it. only way is to make thee rail no signaled singel train uncrossed only. And i don't think that it would even be possible with chain signales. Where is a signal there is a potential stopping point. And the priotrity system has the tendenzi to prefere the wrong train ... i've often expirienced that in my beginnings resolving deadlocks. Making path for more then one train resulted often in a second deadlock because the train that could have resolved the deadlock was locked by the next train that got priority and hence all back to start again. or a better example, a train at nearly full speed stops for a train that comes from it's mine train stop onto the main network. I love it, logically the train with the greater speed should have gone first, but thats seldom how it goes.

[Koub]

X times faster for X² fuel thats not how the world works.
Thay should consume more fuel no question, but let the chruch on the villageplazza.
The fuel consumption for double speed should lay somwhere around double +/- a bit for weight differences.

The energy stored in the fuel is converted into kinetic energy (let's be crazy and and pretend we have a 100% yield conversion from fuel to movement with no friction)
Kinetic energy formula is E=m.v²/2. If your speed gets doubled, your kinetic energy is squared. and logically, the energy your fuel has to provide too.

[Takezu]

True doubeling your speed by constand mass means quadrupeling your energy.
totaly forgot about that ... and totaly made the wrong math, squared the preformance.

My bad.

[The Phoenixian]

Personally, I remain in favor of the old Ropeways idea https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=7977. Having something quick to set up and tear down would be a godsend for the first couple expansions in the mid game or an early game with scattered resource deposits.

[ssilk]

@all: Now I saw many votes for rockets. Which is fine.

But when I initiated this thread, I thought, there are some "disbelievers" , which say "Why is this needed, we should Factorio not make a second OpenTTD!".

So my question:

Are there any votes against the principle need for this 4th type of transport?
If yes please explain why (and I explain why not ). No, seriously, this is important, because such opinions often give deep insights, which make a suggestion (later! this is not a suggestion) much better.





@The Phoenixian :
Well, the ropeway is in my eyes still a good idea (which I thought a lot about, but that is not this subject).
But it is not usable for this, because the items can take minutes, until they reach the target. It is principally not usable for a quick emergency-transport.

[ Off-topic:
The "ropeway" (Or call it 5th transportation-type - but I let it this name, cause I think it is still the best idea about it) has a completely different target. It is
- in the end of the early game (before train!)
- slow,
- very limited throughput, dependent on length
- for middle far distances (between 50 and 1000 tiles)

It is useful to bring stuff to places, which are complicated to reach (like over lakes, over rocks (I think we get some kind of that), or a factory area.
Later on the throughput aspect can change, but that is also another story.
I think the ropeway should enable some kind of smart logistics, to enable steady support of middle-distant outposts.

And it can introduce the cargobox-principle (items in an item: a box, that can contain a stack full of one item, but behaves like an item). But that is also a completely different story.
]

[ratchetfreak]

I don't think the ropeway should enable logistics (isn't that usually after rail?) instead just a decent throughput short-mid range item transport as a way to bring back the ore from the first outposts that are beyond easy belt range but close enough to not warrant a train. (before they need their own supplies) or as a way to bring the ore to the smeling area from the station and the plates to the bus (or for mid bus insertion)

back on rockets; how would the emergency long range transport be triggered?

using wire definitely but what about when you are in the middle of nowhere and need a refill on your bots and ammo?

[ssilk]

I've made some edits!

I don't think the ropeway should enable logistics (isn't that usually after rail?)

Logistics is technically possible with circuit network, not yet, but with the coming changes in 0.12 it is principally possible. I hope.

back on rockets; how would the emergency long range transport be triggered?

Good question.

Hmmmmm....

For me it looks so:

Code: Select all

 Source             ------------------------------->     Target

 Rocket-platform                                         Drop-zone
 
 Available                                               Needed

You have a source and a target. The source is, where you define a rocket-plattform.
The target is defined by a Drop-zone. Both needs to be connected to a logistic network. It could be the same network, but must not.

A drop-zone knows (from the logistic network), what is needed. The rocket-platform knows what is available by the same way. Available are items, that are packed in a cargobox and mounted on a rocket.
Now the target searches for a source, that can deliver it's needs. The distance shouldn't play a role, only the amount of available resource (the more available, the better). And of course, if the start-ramp is free. If found, and brought to start ramp, rocket is started, landing in the target area. (No need to say that until the start-ramp or landing zone is not free it cannot fulfill any other request.)

Code: Select all

     Logistic Network #1                                                                                           Logistic Network #2
            <---------- requests ----      Source     <--------- requests ------------       Target      <-------- requests --------
       items in cargobox with mounted rocket                       items                                             items

Quite simple, till here: The requests are just forwarded (and a bit modified). The requests are fulfilled equally.
Indeed, when I'm thinking about it, it is working like the logistic network, but only in one direction.

Oh, when i think about this, then we need priorities. Some kind of "this is more important than others".

Edit: And to turn it on/off from far away. You have a control panel, like in the Fat Controller mod. You have a stored items view where you can see the requested/available items in all networks, so that you can see, where to turn it on/off.

Edit: You can hook into that network with the circuit network and look, what items are missing and start pre-producing cargoboxes with that items in only, if you have enough. Or instead you can produce the needed cargoboxes only, when you need them - this prolongs the time for transport of course.

when you are in the middle of nowhere and need a refill on your bots and ammo?

Well, this could work like the personal logistic slots. You have a "personel drop zone" , requesting items (once) with this mechanism will let a rocket land near you. Works more or less like the Rocket Express mod.

Edit: I forgot also, that - like in the pneumatic requester suggestion - the cargobox cannot contain cargoboxes. Because that would enable you to send the empty cargoboxes back by rockets. It is also difficult to send rockets, so that you can mount the cargobox again and fill it with something stupid and send it back: The stacksize in cargobox for rockets is reduced to 10 instead of 100 or so. That is the second tweak: You need to bring the cargobox back by train or so, because otherwise it will dump your storage space and it is also not so cheap, that it makes sense to build more than you need.



Edit: This is my temporary impression, how this could be implemented. Of course this can move then to suggestions.

[vampiricdust]

I mostly object to the rocket idea on the points of it being extremely limited in scope and usage. Yeah, it's a fast emergency delivery, but is that really all a 4th transport option going to be used for? I'd rather have something that while it may not match the capacity of trains, is player ridable & actually usable in a fully automated system.