Friday Facts #91 - Being the evil guy

[jockeril]

The combinators will be present, but no other sensors, switches or machines related to the circuit networks will make it to 0.12. We will have to wait for 0.13 with this.
Better train controls, like train connection to circuit network, wait for full/empty etc. will have to wait for 0.13.
The whole platform building (if someone still doesn't know), is moved to 0.13

I'm lost - What does make it into the 0.12 version ? and will you consider making the change needed for R-T-L languages ?

[ssilk]

Some forget, that we already have that sensors: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=6272 Smart Circuit Systems
It can be awaited, that this mod will work with 0.12 without much changes (or any).


And as I understand it we get: (from https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ?f=3&t=678 Factorio Roadmap)
- Multiplayer enhancements (lag hiding, better pvp/forces support)
- First part of the endgame content. (Build rocket and send it to space).
- Chain signals (trains).
- Combinator and more circuit logic.
- Personal roboport
- Optimization of the game simulation speed (mainly transport belt simulation)
- New graphics of combat robots
- Attempt of steam integration

And some more I know (by readying the FFF, bug reports and other comments by Kovarex or other devs):
- Storage tank has a small window showing the liquid inside.
- New turret graphics.
- New tree graphics and behavior (Trees emit leafs and regenerate health slowly).
- Building roads/paths (Concrete and stone bricks)
- Logistic trash fields to the character gui.
- Factorio can run as a dedicated server without graphics
- Reduced number of rendered Roboport connections.
- Eventually new shoot graphics for the new turrets?
- Lab research is now continuous. Science packs have progress bars of usage.
- Inserters can now extract from Roboports and Beacons.
- Path finder will terminate when search is too long.
... the list is of course much longer ...

Some more changes, visible and invisible. One visible will be for example, that we now don't have a rocket defense anymore. One big invisible point will be as always new methods for lua-interface, that will enable modders to create new cool stuff.

[MeduSalem]

Some forget, that we already have that sensors: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=6272 Smart Circuit Systems
It can be awaited, that this mod will work with 0.12 without much changes (or any).

While I haven't forgotten that this mod exists it would be the first time, at least as long as I remember, that a mod would be almost mandatory to make use of a new vanilla-feature because the new feature in it's first iteration will lack the interface to work with it in a useful manner.

I know that there have to be made hard decisions on what to delay until the next major update to meet a set deadline, but I don't really know if the sensors/switches were the right thing for the "cut" since they will be an integral part of using the entire feature properly.


Of course the rest of the update will still be cool stuff I will have a look at.

[lancar]

So, does this mean you'll wait until .13 before you launch the game on Steam? With a good chunk of the endgame content pushed to that version, I believe this would make the most sense.

And yeah... what DID happen to the tanker train cars?

[MeduSalem]

And yeah... what DID happen to the tanker train cars?

Delayed of course, probably to 0.14, to be more realistic, because with the amount of major 0.12 stuff (Second half of Logic Circuitry, Plattform building for endgame, etc) being pushed back to 0.13 I wouldn't wonder if the planned oil-industry extension will have to wait since it is only a "maybe"-thing when nothing else comes in their way. And I expect 0.14 somewhen in the first quarter of 2016, even my hopes are out for a Christmas present. But I don't want to disappoint myself by expecting the impossible, since the devs are only human and they can do only so much.

[ssilk]

While I haven't forgotten that this mod exists it would be the first time, at least as long as I remember, that a mod would be almost mandatory to make use of a new vanilla-feature because the new feature in it's first iteration will lack the interface to work with it in a useful manner.

Why is it (almost) mandatory?

It makes sense to do it like so: First give the players the basics (combinators and useful modding-enhancements), then see, how they use them, then implement the "extras". In this case the needed sensors and thousand of other stuff, we currently are not thinking about.

Why should they implement stuff, that will be never used?

[jockeril]

Some forget, that we already have that sensors: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=6272 Smart Circuit Systems
It can be awaited, that this mod will work with 0.12 without much changes (or any).

While I haven't forgotten that this mod exists it would be the first time, at least as long as I remember, that a mod would be almost mandatory to make use of a new vanilla-feature because the new feature in it's first iteration will lack the interface to work with it in a useful manner.

I know that there have to be made hard decisions on what to delay until the next major update to meet a set deadline, but I don't really know if the sensors/switches were the right thing for the "cut" since they will be an integral part of using the entire feature properly.


Of course the rest of the update will still be cool stuff I will have a look at.

keep in mind that that whole logic system must work in multiplayer - and that's a lot of work just the testing phase of the last multiplayer changes took two major versions and at least 22 subversions... and the time it took especially the time !

[MeduSalem]

Why is it (almost) mandatory?

It makes sense to do it like so: First give the players the basics (combinators and useful modding-enhancements), then see, how they use them, then implement the "extras". In this case the needed sensors and thousand of other stuff, we currently are not thinking about.

Why should they implement stuff, that will be never used?

You got me wrong. I'm not talking about some ultra-exotic features nearly nobody will ever use.

The news announcement sounds like not even the basic sensors like storage tanks, power grid sensors and power switches and stuff related to that will make it for 0.12. And that's the crux of the matter: The basic interface isn't going to ship before 0.13.

The whole talk about upgrading the logic circuitry was started because many people feel like they need a way to access information to work upon (hence some basic sensors) and objects that operate on (power switches, etc) said information.

And if that stuff doesn't make it into 0.12, then basically yeah, the mod rather becomes mandatory in the phase between 0.12 and 0.13 because I can't really do anything with the combinators alone I can't do already without them. That said I want the combinators because they make our lifes much easier, but we also need at least a couple of basic common sense sensors/switches to work with to go along with the combinators otherwise we will only be able to build rather fancy blinking arrays of lamps and not actually anything useful.

Like I said: Buying a car without tires. May look good in the garage, but you can't drive it until you get the tires.

And that's why I just expressed that cutting back on that particular feature to make it for a deadline may not have been the wisest decision.

I'll be able to wait for 0.13 anyways, it's not like I'm going off in a mad rampage just because something didn't make it for 0.12.

I just tried to explain why some people expressed concern about the sensors/switches stuff being delayed to 0.13.

keep in mind that that whole logic system must work in multiplayer - and that's a lot of work just the testing phase of the last multiplayer changes took two major versions and at least 22 subversions... and the time it took especially the time !

I know that. It's not that I'm impatient. It's not like I'm "I want 0.12 NOW, with <xy> utopic features too!!!11".

It's more that without at least the basic sensors/switches the combinators will face rather limited usability because what exactly will you use them on that you can't do currently?

So if it would take 3-4 more weeks to get at least the basic sensors/switches into the game I'm fine with that if it means that the feature will have a full release. Releasing one part of the feature that can't be properly used without the other part being there first is a true dependency problem for me.

[jockeril]

It's more that without at least the basic sensors/switches the combinators will face rather limited usability because what exactly will you use them on that you can't do currently?

So if it would take 3-4 more weeks to get at least the basic sensors/switches into the game I'm fine with that if it means that the feature will have a full release. Releasing one part of the feature that can't be properly used without the other part being there first is a true dependency problem for me.

I hear you and agree - without a way to connect them to other things like the power grid (which I know is a thing EVERYBODY wants) - the combinators are just a lamp lighting logic circuit toy that we can do without in the current technology

[Metonymia]

*I'm kinda serious, we can run them over in the tank but its wasteful and burning it with the flamethrower takes time - a nice automated or driven logging machine on the other hand....

Try Poison Capsules. Expensive maybe, but it works. That, or construction robots.

Anyhow, @kovarex: nice to see the RAM usage has been cut down. As the owner of a not-that-awesome laptop, I greatly appreciate it! It's okay to be the 'evil guy' on this one, by the way. Creating a game takes time, and I'd rather have you guys take that time to filter out bugs, than to release an update that's only half-finished (in terms of stability and functionality).
Ever heard of the 90-90 Law? It says that the first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time, and the other 10% takes another 90% of the time. Think about it.
Combined with the rule-of-thumb that says "everything takes longer than expected, even when taking this rule into account"... yeah, I'm not really blaming you. I prefer people doing a good job over people doing a fast-but-crappy job.

Keep up the good work!

[roy7]

This is the nature of playing a game in alpha. Features will keep getting added until the game is no longer in alpha. If people can't handle partial feature rollouts they should wait for the game to release and buy a finished product.

[ssilk]

otherwise we will only be able to build rather fancy blinking arrays of lamps and not actually anything useful.

So we well be very surprise, if we can do useful things with it. Which is guaranteed to happen, when you look into all the former releases.

So much to be said: Things can be made differently in many aspects, and reducing abilities increases fantasy and produces new and much more useful ideas, than any "planned feature".

This was the way Factorio always has been gone and you are now allowed to call me somehow conservative, but the right mix between new features and old is the key to many cool stuff.

PS: Not, that I'm happy with having new cool stuff delayed some month, but when they found something stable enough, they always put it into the release-phase, which should last 1 month (but I estimate a bit more ). Perhaps that is a small hope?

[neo_en]

I can only speak for myself, but I don't mind waiting if it means more sensor and logistic network stuff. Those are really important to me, and I have been really excited for those.

agree

[ratchetfreak]

having indicators in your main hub when a mine is getting low will be helpful

I'd love to see a set of guages that show the income of copper/iron/oil in your main base

Or a warning light when the number of ore in the buffer chest is less that the last time a train came by (or just under some threshold) to signal that you need to find a new patch

[Peter34]

I just want a very few simple things:

1. The ability to measure how full a given Tank is, expressed as a percentage. I can then put all my various Tanks in equilibrium, Crude Oil, Heavy, Light, Petrol Gas, Acid, Lube, and measure on one of each.

1b. The ability to use such measurements, when they're over or under certain thresholds defined by me, to turn Pumps on or off.

2. The ability to measure how full of energy any given Accumulator is.

2b. The ability to use that measurement to turn Pumps on or off.

That's all. That's all there is to it. That is the extent of my lust. But apparently we don't get those simple things in alpha 12. Hopefully the already-existing mod till quickly be adapted to alpha 12, though. It's just silly that the devs can't add such basic functionality as outlined above.

[FrozenOne]

I just want a very few simple things:

1. The ability to measure how full a given Tank is, expressed as a percentage. I can then put all my various Tanks in equilibrium, Crude Oil, Heavy, Light, Petrol Gas, Acid, Lube, and measure on one of each.

1b. The ability to use such measurements, when they're over or under certain thresholds defined by me, to turn Pumps on or off.

2. The ability to measure how full of energy any given Accumulator is.

2b. The ability to use that measurement to turn Pumps on or off.

That's all. That's all there is to it. That is the extent of my lust. But apparently we don't get those simple things in alpha 12. Hopefully the already-existing mod till quickly be adapted to alpha 12, though. It's just silly that the devs can't add such basic functionality as outlined above.

You dont need any new "sensors, switches or machines" for this, so whats the problem?

[lancar]

Well, I don't really mind waiting either for the whole deal to become available. I've been waiting for what feels like an eternity for the game to get out of .11, so what's another month or two compared to that?

[GewaltSam]

Well, if something doesn't make it into 0.12, I see no problem at all. It's not off the table, it's just postponed, isn't it? As long as you guys don't lose some of those mentioned good ideas to strict timetables! That would be the real evil
Some of the more interesting stuff doesn't make it to 0.12, but that version seems to happen a lot earlier than I thought after 0.11, anyway. And it's summer, so I am very happy to get back hardcore into factory building in the later months of the year

[roy7]

I just want a very few simple things:

1. The ability to measure how full a given Tank is, expressed as a percentage. I can then put all my various Tanks in equilibrium, Crude Oil, Heavy, Light, Petrol Gas, Acid, Lube, and measure on one of each.
2. The ability to measure how full of energy any given Accumulator is.

Can't you just use https://github.com/Kikkers/Factorio_Sma ... it-Systems in the mean time?

[Peter34]

Can't you just use https://github.com/Kikkers/Factorio_Sma ... it-Systems in the mean time?

Only if the developper updates it to remain compatible with alpha 12. I also resent having to use mods. And it's non-trivial to coordinate mods in MP games, and until we get Steam Integration I also have to check, before every MP game, if any of the mods we're using needs updating, so that I can inform the other players.

But yes sure, if he does update his mod to alpha 12 then if we play an MP game of alpha 12 then we'll use that. Most likely we'll wait until alpha 13, though, when the sensors and controls are included in the vanilla game.