[UPDATED] Introducing NARMod 3.4

[aureon]

Hi, great work here.

Is there a way to get sulfur besides as a byproduct of oil processing?
Trying to make explosives of any type basically means shutting down the whole Processing Board plant, for... not that many explosives. Sulfuric Acid is extremely hard to come by, and i'm already running 8 oil refineries full-time and wasting most of the petroleum gas.

Also, this is compatible with the great Resource Spawner Overhaul, but default values result in obscene oversupply of Zinc\Gold\Bauxite, and somewhat Tin, while Quartz is practically nonexistant. All my train expeditions are searching for quartz. Is this intended?

[boro]

I enjoy your mod very much, thanks!

However there's a dependency loop in the research tree:
Oil processing requires (amongst other things) arc welding, air handling, mid sized electric motors ,zinc and brass processing and sulfur. But sulfur requires oil processing. I forced it through the console though.

[Takezu]

Seems that's not the default bob ores generation messing with RSO. Should better ask in the RSO thread if theres a way around that. Normally Quarz is spawned by RSo quite near the Base, at least if you are using Bob ores Quarz. if thats another quarz could be that it's not recognized by RSO and therefore not generatet. Maybe intendet to be incompatible or maybe something orzelek may have to look at.

[Nalshee]

to the RSO thing: qoute from RSO forum:

Hi, RSO is great mod .
But i have some problems with NAR mod, it seems that RSO sees that NEAR adds one resource same as Bobore (rutile) and uses all its configs, but NAR does not have silver, so when it wants to spawn silver it crashes game... I added

in bobore config

if game.entityprototypes["silver-ore"] then
config["silver-ore"] =

before config of silver, it works, but sometimes it gives messages with something about silver ore (occurs when exploring, so probably some function want to spawn silver ore, but this time it just ignores it instead of crashing). It does not bother me much, but thought that you might want to know .

The bob ores detection catches NAR mod because it's similarities and same ores used.
I need to add proper support for NAR mod and probably fix bob's ores detection to make sure it does not trigger with other mods since it might be causing problems - it assumes all the ores from bob's are there.
Also... silver? in bob's ores ? I might have missed something or I'm not up to date

[orzelek]

I intend to add proper NARMod support - I had impression that it will have ores rebalanced so would prefer to wait for taht to happen.
And bob's detection will need to be changed to avoid false detection of NARMod.

[boro]

Man this mod is hard. Is it intentional that you have nothing for defense except walls and pistol until you have researched way past oil processing ? I'm getting overrun by tiny groups of small biters
I suspect in previous versions zinc/brass processing did not require sulfur researched. Would fix the loop I mentioned a few posts above.

[damienreave]

Boro:
You are correct. The biggest problem with all of this added complexity is just that it takes too much time to get decent defenses up and running. It only gets worse in 4.0, since with the method of refining ores becoming as completely realistic as I can make it, it will take even longer.

Right now, my solution is just to double the distance that the Biters initially spawn from the base, but its not one that I'm happy with. I'm curious what everyone thinks for how to best make this work. Would it be better to make rifle magazines unrealistically easy to make (i.e. not requiring any gunpowder) so that you can get gun turrets up? Should I buff pistols? Or maybe a different solution I'm not thinking of.

I want the game to be completely beatable on default settings, and right now I think its just too hard to get defenses up, so let me know if you guys have any ideas on how to improve that part without taking away too much from realism/complexity and without nerfing the biter difficulty too much.

(Edit: Okay, I've got two kinds of Rifle Magazines now, basic and advanced. Basic requires iron plates, copper plates, and charcoal, and does regular submachine gun damage. Advanced requires lead plates, brass plates, potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulfur dioxide, all of which you can get with only red tech now, and they do piercing bullet damage. I've also moved the regular gun turret tech much closer. This should allieviate a lot of the early game issues).

aureon:
Thanks for the feedback! In my test games, I didn't make much in the way of explosives, so I never realized this. Its very important to be able to mass produce explosives for military victory points!

In the upcoming versions, it will be a lot easier to get sulfur. Some copper ores are sulfides, so some methods of extracting copper metal from ore will give off sulfur dioxide. I'm making it optionally possible to recover this sulfur dioxide if you want.

orzelek:
Cool! I'd love RSO compatibility. But you're right, hold on about implementing them for a bit, I'm finishing off my changes to ores and then we can talk about it.

[juunsuke]

Boro:
Right now, my solution is just to double the distance that the Biters initially spawn from the base, but its not one that I'm happy with. I'm curious what everyone thinks for how to best make this work. Would it be better to make rifle magazines unrealistically easy to make (i.e. not requiring any gunpowder) so that you can get gun turrets up? Should I buff pistols? Or maybe a different solution I'm not thinking of.

What about making the first Biters much weaker, and have a manual weapon like a rock thrower that can do relatively well against them. By the time you have access to gunpowder and rifles, they should become as strong as they are at the start of a normal game.

You could even have primitive turrets that throw stones, if that's even possible.

[orzelek]

This defense scaling problem is also visible in shadows modpack and also I think in standalone bob's mods maybe.
I didn't find nice solution for it other then buffed defences - without them it gets very tedious as you might be attacked very heavily and have no automatic repairs for example.

Other way would be to reduce the scaling of evolution factor - mainly the pollution based one probably since it's the one that generates most of the evolution when you have big base.

[Nalshee]

maybe some wood traps /iron traps in combination with walls are enough
rock throwers sounds nice too, just some springs and stones with long cooldown, or iron bullets / cannonballs in combination with steam presure.

sry if my english isnt nice today

[Takezu]

Only an idea but, what about removing the timeevolution and decreasing the pollution evolution drastically,
but in return increasing the evolutionfactor for destroyed spawners.
Something similar what the (i think it's called) no evolution mod does.

That way you'd have to only deal with small biters in low quantitys until you're
go out destroying bases. How quick it turns ugly is then up to you.

[damienreave]

Takezu - I like this idea a lot. I'll give it a try. Rock throwers are another solid idea, but I'd have to make new animations and stuff.

[aureon]

I intend to add proper NARMod support - I had impression that it will have ores rebalanced so would prefer to wait for taht to happen.
And bob's detection will need to be changed to avoid false detection of NARMod.

Actually, i ripped all the Silver ore references and it works quite well.

The only problems are the quantities, honestly:

Zinc, gold, bauxite are 5-10x too abundant
Quartz is 2-3x less than needed.
Lead and Tin are more or less right, as are the basic resources (copper\iron\oil)

I play with RSO, and that's a screenshot of my map:

The vast majority of that exploration was done to search for more quartz.
I have explored 11k chunks through Automated Rail Layer + radars, and have 11 trains on the rails (3 of which are pretty much quartz-only).
I'm decently near endgame (building the Motherboard chain), but i'm pretty sure i'll have to explore at least another 5k chunks to have enough quartz.

[Takezu]

I couldn't make out any deposit of ores on your screen. Your Zoom is too low.
But if i look at my maps, thats RSO in a nut shell.
Current map of mine, i'Ve almost no Bauxite whatsoever but could burry you in Tungsten (Bob ores map).
If i'd have to guess it's bad RNG.

I don'T know all the details, but as far as i'm aware RSO rolls the deposits against each other. Quarz should be
more present, but RNG can be quit the opposite of whats expectet.

For reference Tungsten should be a rare ore, at least much rarer as Bauxite.

[orzelek]

Could you enable debug mode in RSO config and start new game - after that there will be a debug log in script-output/logs directory.
It'll give actual %-age chances for each resource in your configuration. My guess atm is that NARMod might have different resource needs then bob's mods or DyTech and it would need a bit different configs. Actually if it's going by bob's mods config tungsten and gems are rarest ores.. you should see that in debug output.
You are probably hitting only 1 mutli-roll chance - might need to make it trigger earlier for 2 to get more ores distributed in same area due to a lot of ore types.

[boro]

Might be an oversight on my part but where is nitrocholorobenzene made in? I have the recipe but no building to produce it.

[aureon]

Could you enable debug mode in RSO config and start new game - after that there will be a debug log in script-output/logs directory.
It'll give actual %-age chances for each resource in your configuration. My guess atm is that NARMod might have different resource needs then bob's mods or DyTech and it would need a bit different configs. Actually if it's going by bob's mods config tungsten and gems are rarest ores.. you should see that in debug output.
You are probably hitting only 1 mutli-roll chance - might need to make it trigger earlier for 2 to get more ores distributed in same area due to a lot of ore types.

I don't think anything isn't working as intended - it's simply not tuned for NARMod, which i hadn't thought of because it worked : )

[damienreave]

boro - Nope, looks like its an oversight on my part. It should be made in a Chemical Plant like everything else in that production line, but Chemical Plants can't take 3 liquid ingredients.

Easy fix... add Chlorobenzene as an intermediate step. I'll post a new version in a bit.

Work is still going on the ores. It's... tough to find a way to make it work the way I want. Still, should be out soon-ish.

[boro]

Researching modules unlocks all the base modules without needing to research them seperately.

[boro]

Another bug, I can't make nutrient solution (5 ingredients).
edit: also robot frame and roboport, but those I can craft in hand