Friday Facts #89 Timetables

[factoriouzr]

First of all I want to say that this game is AMAZING!

Thank you everyone for all your hard work, and same to the modding community. There are a ton of really great mods.

One of the things i love is that you guys pay attention to the details and focus on automation. I like games where you craft stuff and RPGS. I don't mind crafting something once or twice, but having to manually craft things over and over can be very cumbersome especially when you have to use special buildings etc. I love how in this game there are manual steps but eventually (logistics and construction bots) you get all that automated. It takes the chores away and allows me to have fun with the game expanding my factory, tweaking stuff etc. This is also shown in your decision to implement personal constructions bots, which I completely agree with as this was a weak point of the game.

I have some suggestions for the 0.12 version of the game. It sounded like some of this might be in 0.12 but I wanted to voice my opinions.

Here is my list of improvements in order from most important to less important (but I would still like it in the final game, but it doesn't have to be in 0.12):

1) show an easy count of total logistics and construction bots in the network including all idle and active bots. Ie a total count
2) Allow smart inserters to insert logistics and construction bots into any roboport in the network with a condition on the max number of each of the bots this way we can automatically maintain a set number of bots of each type
3) global logistics. Ie. instead of updating each smart inserter in a robotic network, have a screen that shows each good in the network and the count (kind of like the power production/consumption screen), maybe show rate per second, minute etc, and on this screen allow setting the upper limit on how many of each item should be in the network. This would apply to the local robotic network, but maybe in the future a screen where you can select any robotic network on the map would be nice. I find it a bit tedious in the current system to change the max amount of any item. It requires going to every factory and every smart inserter dealing with that good and modifying it. I know there is a copy and paste feature, but if you had to expand you factory in different direction due to space etc limitations, finding all of them can be quite a chore.
4) Fix the total goods window in the robotic network as it gets cut off once you get too many goods. This can be fixed via the above suggestion
5) add player logistics slots for always taking items of a certain type away from the player
6) add player logistics slots (maybe one row, 5 boxes or so) for manually putting items into that you want the logistics robots to take a away form you. This functions the same as active provider chests
7) Improve the variety and levels of aliens
8) add more turret varieties (sounds like this will be in 0.13)
9) add more upgrades to player logistics slots, more inventory space (not as important), and more hotbars/toolbars

Personally 1 - 7 would be really great if they made it into 0.12. I think 1-6 are also probably not that difficult to implement as they are already in the game in some form, or there are mods to do some of this already.
7 likely requires more work, but I think is very important because the aliens are very similar and don't provide much challenge for turrets in late game bases.

I hope you consider my suggestions as I think they would add a lot to the game and I know some have already been discussed.
Thanks again for a great game!

[Peter34]

several people have mentioned the imbalance between gun and laser turrents because of size and costs. energy is much cheaper than ammo + logistics. in addition, ammo is just way too weak. to fight any of the tier 3 enemys, and I guess they will be useless vs the new Tier 4 biters.

I'd like to see Gun Turrets boosted, so that they aren't 33% as good as Laser Turrets but more like 75% as good. And I think the best ways to boost them is to make them more robust, by giving them a little Physical Resist and more Hit Points compared to Laser Turrets (currently neither has any Resist and Laser Turrets have a few more HP) and to even out the Range discrepancy, perhaps by leaving base Ranges as they are, 17 vs 25, but allowing Tech Research to give drastic Range bonuses to Gun Turrets to reduce the discrepancy that way.

[DaveMcW]

Simply doubling gun turret damage to match the doubled size will give them a huge boost. Biters get flat damage reduction on every shot, so they will resist less when there are fewer shots.

[Marconos]

Why is there all this about gun turrets being so bad? It take 1/2 as many guns as lasers to hold a wall. They annihilate biters much faster than lasers. The only downside is they take ammo, but beyond that the guns are great and work very well. Balance out power issues and the lasers are taken care of, especially now that they are 2 x 2 and you can't pack them as tight.

For the original post, great update, good to know the timeline. It would be nice to know if our current maps are dead or not. If they are oh well, it's called alpha for a reason

[Zeblote]

Still hoping version 12 will have the HD textures for everything...

This is not going to happen

We have currently high res versions of 2 entities (the 2 we presented in the fff already), and the new entities are prepared and rendered for high resolution as well, but it is not tested nor integrated.

The old entities need a lot of work to make it prepared for the high res render.

TL;DR It is going to be a lot of work to make high res version of everything, it will probably happen, but we will not do it anytime soon.

so this must be what 0.13 is all about then

[ThaPear]

Still hoping version 12 will have the HD textures for everything...

This is not going to happen

We have currently high res versions of 2 entities (the 2 we presented in the fff already), and the new entities are prepared and rendered for high resolution as well, but it is not tested nor integrated.

The old entities need a lot of work to make it prepared for the high res render.

TL;DR It is going to be a lot of work to make high res version of everything, it will probably happen, but we will not do it anytime soon.

so this must be what 0.13 is all about then

While I do like me some HD graphics, I believe the current graphics are sufficient for the moment. I'd like to see more features first and maybe see HD in 0.15-0.16.
As a modder, I'd love it if the blank entity class would be available in 0.13.

[SNORKOFOB]

Welp. Terraria 1.3 is out on 30th June. Factorio 0.12 is out in the end of the June. WHAT DO I PLAY???

[sillyfly]

Welp. Terraria 1.3 is out on 30th June. Factorio 0.12 is out in the end of the June. WHAT DO I PLAY???

Why not both?

[AMV]

Will saves from 0.11 be compatible with 0.12 version of the game? And what will be with 1x1 turrets if they would?

[ssilk]

I think they will have just a converter, that automatically replaces the turrets. It is not the first time, that entities on map are replaced between versions. Maybe it breaks small things but generally better than nothing.

[DaveMcW]

I don't think they ever wrote a converter for different sized entities...

Probably the simplest way is to allow old turrets to still exist, but disable building new ones.

[roman566]

The new turrets look nice, could we also get new ammo for gun turret? Like sniper style ammo that has more range, very low rate of fire and high damage? Combined with option of giving turrets target priorities it would be possible to create more interesting defense lines, slightly better than 'three rows of laser turrets'.

And yeah, will the new turrets break old save games?

[Qcor]

...could we also get new ammo for gun turret? Like sniper style ammo that has more range, very low rate of fire and high damage? Combined with ...

I see a lot of requests like this one... and don't get me wrong ofc it would be nice to have those things but don't you think it should be done via modding?
I mean ofc the devs could also do that (as 100000 other cool things) but they have a limited amount of time/resources.
IMHO the devs should focus on things which make mod developers life easier... do the ground work, good API.. that kind of stuff, not the mod-kind of stuff.
If making this type of mod will be easy then I'm 100% sure that someone will make this mod in no time. (btw in this particular case it is already done I think.. DyTech mod got those kind of turrets iirc)

[MeduSalem]

I don't think they ever wrote a converter for different sized entities...

Probably the simplest way is to allow old turrets to still exist, but disable building new ones.

The simplest way would probably be just to remove all entries of the old turrets from the savegame on load.

You may be defenseless, but it would definitely be better than trying to convert 1x1/1x2 to 2x2 because you just can't do that due to objects being nearby, preventing the placement. And leaving obsolete stuff in the code for compatibility reasons just causes other problems due to people never really getting rid of them and so you have to keep on carrying over the code for all eternity, eventually having to break the compatibility anyways because it just becomes a burden to develop around it.

So my advice would be... just remove all entries of the old turrets from the savegame and that's it. Maybe optionally place a chest at the spot of the very first turret in the list and fill it with the number of turrets found on the map so the resources invested in them aren't lost, but I wouldn't even mind if the resources are lost too.

[kovarex]

And leaving obsolete stuff in the code for compatibility reasons just causes other problems due to people never really getting rid of them and so you have to keep on carrying over the code for all eternity, eventually having to break the compatibility anyways because it just becomes a burden to develop around it.

I want to clarify that the code actually exists already, it needs to exist as the data structure of the save is changing A LOT every update, and it wouldn't be possible to use save from any other version than the currernt one (even the minor release related stuff):


There are lot of places (more than 500 actually) with this kind of code:

Code: Select all

 if (input.mapVersion >= MapVersion(0, 9, 0, 6) && input.load<bool>())
    this->fluidBox = FluidBoxPrototype::load(input, this->getPrototype()->fluidBoxPrototype, this);

This just solves the problem, we don't really need to keep it for eternity, we just keep the backwards compatibility with maps 3 or 4 major releases back, and then we just drop it.

So this way, we could simply make a condition, that would merge turrets when loading pre 0.12 save and drop this code once we have 0.15 release.

[MeduSalem]

[...]

This just solves the problem, we don't really need to keep it for eternity, we just keep the backwards compatibility with maps 3 or 4 major releases back, and then we just drop it.

So this way, we could simply make a condition, that would merge turrets when loading pre 0.12 save and drop this code once we have 0.15 release.

Oh well then.

I probably can't help it, I'm much more radical about dropping compatibility for legacy stuff.

But that's also because I'm coming from another viewpoint... I mean I never got too far into IT, especially software development because I had a change of mind in my youth and went for Construction Engineering instead because I'm better suited for that, but the few years I spent studying hardware development/engineering, especially telecommunications technology, I really grew to hate everything related to "keeping <xy> for compatibility reasons".

It rendered developing new circuit boards as well as integrated circuits even if it was for scientific studies only just a complete sore because one can't develop anything new from the ground up without hearing "What about legacy devices <xy>?", resulting in layouts two or three times as difficult/huge as they would have to be if it would just be a straight forward implementation.

The compatiblity in the hardware sector is in my opinion up for debate, because most often the compatibility path will NEVER be used anyways because there are enough alternatives available (adapters, redundant legacy ports, etc) that help with the migration phase. Especially when looking on cabling/plugs for example... Nobody will ever use PS/2 ports anymore, because there's no mouse/keyboard manufacturer selling stuff using the interface anymore, even if they do they ship with PS/2-USB adapters (I have like 6 of them somewhere in the shelf), yet the motherboard manufacturers keep on putting the crap on the backpanel, wasting space and there's like a ton of other similar stuff I would have thrown over board 5-10 years ago already.

I also would have developed the upcoming USB Type-C connector without USB1.0/2.0 backwards compatibility because of how any reasonable motherboard offers at least 4-6 additional USB2.0/3.0 Type A ports anyways. And I also would have developed a new connector for the upcoming SATA Express standard, dropping AHCI/SATA3 support instead of the ridiculous SFF-8639 connector having more resemblence to oldschool IDE ports because they are almost as huge, because most motherboards offer like 6 standard SATA ports anyways making it perfectly able to have a migration phase without backwards compatible plugs.

[Marconos]

...could we also get new ammo for gun turret? Like sniper style ammo that has more range, very low rate of fire and high damage? Combined with ...

I see a lot of requests like this one... and don't get me wrong ofc it would be nice to have those things but don't you think it should be done via modding?
I mean ofc the devs could also do that (as 100000 other cool things) but they have a limited amount of time/resources.
IMHO the devs should focus on things which make mod developers life easier... do the ground work, good API.. that kind of stuff, not the mod-kind of stuff.
If making this type of mod will be easy then I'm 100% sure that someone will make this mod in no time. (btw in this particular case it is already done I think.. DyTech mod got those kind of turrets iirc)

Maybe it's because a large number of us want a complete game and not a "framework" idea that keeps getting thrown around. I didn't buy a modding engine I purchased a game and at this point we like to suggest features to be in the game. Currently I only use 2 mods that both deal with things that are announced to already be changing. I don't want the stupid mod hell that is games like minecraft with a crap experience for the base game. I'm hoping these guys produce a great standalone game that doesn't need any mods to be a great experience. (I don't think I'm the only one that thinks this way either)

So far, they are producing a great game experience and I'm looking forward to them continuing on that route!!

[kovarex]

...could we also get new ammo for gun turret? Like sniper style ammo that has more range, very low rate of fire and high damage? Combined with ...

I see a lot of requests like this one... and don't get me wrong ofc it would be nice to have those things but don't you think it should be done via modding?
I mean ofc the devs could also do that (as 100000 other cool things) but they have a limited amount of time/resources.
IMHO the devs should focus on things which make mod developers life easier... do the ground work, good API.. that kind of stuff, not the mod-kind of stuff.
If making this type of mod will be easy then I'm 100% sure that someone will make this mod in no time. (btw in this particular case it is already done I think.. DyTech mod got those kind of turrets iirc)

Maybe it's because a large number of us want a complete game and not a "framework" idea that keeps getting thrown around. I didn't buy a modding engine I purchased a game and at this point we like to suggest features to be in the game. Currently I only use 2 mods that both deal with things that are announced to already be changing. I don't want the stupid mod hell that is games like minecraft with a crap experience for the base game. I'm hoping these guys produce a great standalone game that doesn't need any mods to be a great experience. (I don't think I'm the only one that thinks this way either)

So far, they are producing a great game experience and I'm looking forward to them continuing on that route!!

You don't need to be afraid, we are not planning to overuse the argument "You have mod for that". There was mod for blueprints, personal roboport, floors etc. and now it (is going to be) in the vanilla as well. When the
idea is working good we just put it in the game with full integration with other stuff.

[Qcor]

When the idea is working good we just put it in the game with full integration with other stuff.

And that is the best ideology ever Let the mod authors come up with ideas then public test and fine-tune by community and finally when the whole concept proves to be good then implement it to vanilla.
It's rly a shame that so few ppl understand that this is how it should work It is a well proven method and it works great. For example Blizzard is doing exactly that in WoW.
But to execute that ideology you have to provide a good framework and support modding.. and that's why I'm so worried that the gui still hasn't changed (I mean the problems I tried to explain here https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 33&t=12699)

[ratchetfreak]

When the idea is working good we just put it in the game with full integration with other stuff.

And that is the best ideology ever Let the mod authors come up with ideas then public test and fine-tune by community and finally when the whole concept proves to be good then implement it to vanilla.
It's rly a shame that so few ppl understand that this is how it should work It is a well proven method and it works great. For example Blizzard is doing exactly that in WoW.
But to execute that ideology you have to provide a good framework and support modding.. and that's why I'm so worried that the gui still hasn't changed (I mean the problems I tried to explain here https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 33&t=12699)

Except there is the issue of licensing; who owns the code of the mod and are the devs allowed to just grab the code and put it in the main game.

This has the danger that a disgruntled mod dev can issue a DMCA takedown and boom no more factorio.