is effectivity module op?

[bobingabout]

I think the effectivity modules biggest part for me is... reducing the negative side effects of the Speed and productivity modules.

If you think the base game's modules are OP... try playing with my modules mod, I gave them 20% per level, so, 20, 40, 60, 80... up to 160. Why 160% reduction? well, Use it in combination with a speed module of the same level that has a 160% extra power consumption, takes you back to a +0%.

Then I have advanced modules that have the speed and productivity bonuses without side effects, and one that has a speed and polution reduction.

Don't get me wrong, they're pretty expensive, I completely re-wrote the recipies, you pretty much have to be endgame (producing intergrated electronics, which is processing unit level if we're talking base game levels) before you can even make a mk1 module, and the costs just go up. (though to be fair, since the original is so expensive tech level wise, you're effectively just throwing more and more resources at them to make it a higher level.)

[xnmo]

I do agree that the modules need to be looked at and thoroughly reworked. What's the point of putting speed modules into a lab when it costs less resources and energy usage to just to build another lab? The only place I see speed modules being useful is in depleted oil wells.

You get a 100% speed boost for a 100% increase in energy usage for roughly ~20 copper and 40ish iron for just building a new lab.

You get a 40% speed boost for a 100% increase in energy usage for over 60 copper, 30 iron and 20 plastic for putting 2 energy module 1's into a lab. And higher ranked modules definitely aren't a more efficient way to spend your resources

Effectivity modules I think are the most useful overall, as you can put them in everything and know that they are doing what they are made to do. I think the reason they seem OP is only because the other modules are kind of lame relative to this one, not because they are actually OP.

Productivity modules have a rather dubious cost/performance ratio especially early on when its not easy to get up the massive energy grid necessary to handle putting them into everything. That being said it is probably OK like that, as I think they are pretty useful to have later on. However I don't understand why you can only use them with intermediate products, it feels really gamey and arbitrary and doesn't make any logical sense. Why can a factory make 1.08 electronic circuits but not 1.08 transport belts? Transport belts are just as intermediate a product since they are used for basically every other belt as well as green potions and a million other things. If someone wants to waste their energy setting up an assembler to make .08 extra of a completely useless combat shotgun, why not let them?

It also makes beacons completely worthless since you can't put productivity modules into them. Beacons' current implementation in the game is pretty half-baked to be honest. There's no point putting effectivity modules into them since whatever power you save through that is lost in the half a megawatt of power the beacon uses, and if you can actually set it up so you are saving on net power usage, the modules plus beacon together cost so much put together that I just do not see it being worth it in the slightest. And putting speed modules in a beacon are not useful for the same reason it is not useful to put speed modules directly into a building.

[Jace_Macleod]

It also makes beacons completely worthless since you can't put productivity modules into them. Beacons' current implementation in the game is pretty half-baked to be honest. There's no point putting effectivity modules into them since whatever power you save through that is lost in the half a megawatt of power the beacon uses, and if you can actually set it up so you are saving on net power usage, the modules plus beacon together cost so much put together that I just do not see it being worth it in the slightest. And putting speed modules in a beacon are not useful for the same reason it is not useful to put speed modules directly into a building.

Actually, speed modules in beacons are very useful if you're slapping expensive productivity module III modules into everything. (Which is itself worthwhile if you're playing a long game and want to make the most of your ore deposits; a large module-III factory without productivity boosts will deplete resources incredibly fast.) Consider a smelter line. A smelter with 2 productivity III modules has a production multiplier of 1.2 (+20%) and a speed multiplier of 0.7 (-30%). A single beacon filled with speed III modules gives a speed bonus of +50%. It is very easy to set up a line of beacons adjacent to a line of smelters so that every smelter has 4 effect sources, all beacons but the ones at the edges affecting 4 smelters. (They instead affect 2 or 3.) Every smelter now has a speed multiplier of 70% + 200% = 2.7, a near quadrupling of furnace output. This means that for the cost of the speed modules going into the beacons, you effectively cut your productivity module cost by nearly a fourth. Overall, this cuts the total number of modules needed by about half. The savings are even greater in the case of assembling machines.

You can express this in terms of marginal cost. Mathematically, since every beacon increases speed by +50%, each effect source essentially gains you half a smelter/assembling machine. For every smelter affected, you save 1 module; for every assembling machine, you save 2 modules. Since the beacons themselves cost 2 speed modules, you break even if the beacon affects at least 2 smelters, or just 1 assembling machine. Every effect source beyond that is pure profit.

(In reality, since productivity modules also affect speed, this calculation is a bit off. But since the error is in terms of underestimating modules saved, the fundamental logic is still sound. If a beacon is affecting at least 2 smelters or 1 assembling machine, that is a worthwhile beacon.)

[n9103]

Math's a bit off.
e.g. 70% speed + (4 x 50% boost) = 170% of original speed.
I suspect the rest of the figures used also suffered, (like the break even point being only one AM,) but that was the most glaring one.

I agree with the sentiment behind the post however.

[Jace_Macleod]

Wait, are the speed penalties and bonuses separate? I assumed that there's a -30% coming from two production modules, and a +50% coming from every beacon, so one beacon affecting one smelter would give +20%, or a 1.2 multiplier. 4 beacons would be +200%, for +170% or a 2.7 multiplier overall. 4 beacons affecting an assembling machine III filled with production modules would be +200% added to -60%, for +140% or a 2.4 multiplier overall.

If they're instead somehow separated by module type, or whether they're coming from modules inside the assembler/smelter or from beacons, I have only one thing to say:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGG

(Retract AAARRRG if I was correct, of course. Either way, the takeaway from this is that the documentation on modules is kind of confusing.)


EDIT: Ah, I think I see what you did there. It's a +170% bonus overall, yes, but remember that there's the original 100% to factor in, so it's actually 270% of the original. Percentages are kind of tricky for exactly that reason; a +200% bonus isn't double production, it's triple.

[n9103]

(I think I spotted part of the problem. I figured AM2s at first. Also, we're both off it looks like.)

Production-3 = -15% speed, +10% prod
Speed-3 = +50% speed

2 speed-3 x 4 beacons = +200% speed to one AM (We're good so far.)
1 AM-3 w/ 4 prod-3 = -60% speed, +40% prod

-60% + 200% = +140% speed bonus (or 240% total speed)

If you go and address the production bonus, it end up being around 336% total speed.

This all ignores the ~40 pollution from every AM, assuming you're on pure solar. :p

[xnmo]

Hmm... it never came to my mind that speed modules on beacons would in a rather roundabout way reduce the number of facilities required therefore get more bang for your buck per productivity module. Very interesting, I'll have to take another look at beacons then.

[omega_haxors]

Speed: Useful for speeding up a single production when expanding isn't an option. The downside punishes you for spamming them by forcing you to expand your power production and producing more pollution. Normally balanced but w/ improved power production mods it can get a little bit OP.

Productivity: An extremely interesting case. This module serves the role of being extremely overpowered and underpowered at the same time. Because of the downsides most would see it as useless, and I even called them as such when I first found them. Look past the downsides, however, and you will find one of the most powerful modules you will ever find. One of the biggest issues with speeding up engines is that you may have a hard time keeping them filled with ingredients, this module will allow you to not only slow down the process a little, but get even more out of the resources you put in. When paired with beacons filled with speed/efficiency, this module has no downsides.

Efficiency: Very overpowered in every way. Due to the way they stack, you can easily hit the -80% limit with just 3 regular modules. Not only that, they also reduce the pollution making it very viable to have no pollution at all coming off your base if you live in a forest, also allowing you to live completely off solar. Not only that, but they can also be put in beacons to make certain mods' machines able to be reduced. Use of these is almost certain to make the game extremely boring. The best way to sort this out would to make the modules have diminishing returns, so that reaching the -80% limit is a rare sight, rather than a common occurrence.


--Module Breakdown --

Speed Module:

+ Compact. Not as many machines needed
+ Fast. Produce more stuff faster
+ Beaconable
- Inserters may not be able to keep up
- Cost. Modules get expensive
- May need to upscale production of items/electricity

Productivity Module:

+ Reduces production load
+ Downsides very easy to counteract
+ Increases potential of your machines when used with beacons
+ Can be used to great effect on certain recipes
+ Saves ingredients you may need for another process
- Produces more pollution
- Non-beaconable
- Slower production speed
- May need to upscale production of electricity

Efficiency Module:

+ Vastly reduces pollution and energy usage
+ Extremely cheap
+ Beaconable
+ Covers all other modules' downsides
+ Allows carbon-neutral production in some circumstances
- Makes the game boring by removing enemy threat and pollution evolution

[Marconos]

Why efficiency modules are not overpowered.

Solar power is free, solar power is infinite, lasers turrets are powered for free , power is free.
Thus biters and pollution don't matter.
Power is irrelevant in this game due to free solar energy and thus anything dealing with it doesn't matter.

Now running a coal powered plant, things change. Having said that I still don't believe they are overpowered as you need them to be as strong as they are to offset the penalties of the speed and productivity modules. In most of my advanced oil setups I have dual productivity modules with beacons around them with speed and efficiency modules. Without the efficiency being what they are it would be very difficult to power everything (I only run coal power since solar is broken IMHO).

[aRatNamedSammy]

personally, i dont see em as OP.. i think its a necessity for balancing production lines, or speed it up.. i even think beacons could have 1 tile larger range effect (but that s only my opinion)

[quinor]

personally, i dont see em as OP.. i think its a necessity for balancing production lines, or speed it up.. i even think beacons could have 1 tile larger range effect (but that s only my opinion)

That would make beacons OP as you could fit insane number of them around buildings.

[omega_haxors]

Why efficiency modules are not overpowered.

Solar power is free, solar power is infinite, lasers turrets are powered for free , power is free.
Thus biters and pollution don't matter.
Power is irrelevant in this game due to free solar energy and thus anything dealing with it doesn't matter.

Now running a coal powered plant, things change. Having said that I still don't believe they are overpowered as you need them to be as strong as they are to offset the penalties of the speed and productivity modules. In most of my advanced oil setups I have dual productivity modules with beacons around them with speed and efficiency modules. Without the efficiency being what they are it would be very difficult to power everything (I only run coal power since solar is broken IMHO).

The point where your argument fails is that having high pollution will increase the difficulty. Sure you can handle small, hell maybe even medium biters no problem, but I can promise you that the large ones, in quantity, can easily overwhelm any laser defense system and put the rest of the base offline. Because you're not giving AF about pollution, it's safe to assume that bases are constantly churning out difficulty which will catch up to you later on in the game.

Playing with and without efficiency is night and day, based on the scale of your factory. I didn't used to think that Eff was OP until I played a modpack w/o access to the modules early game and I struggled dramatically in comparison. A lot of bad habits that I had picked up from their use started to pack up and I was very quickly having to redesign a lot of my base to compensate. I kid you not, I was able to get a difficulty modifier of -2 because I was producing no pollution at all a few hours after I got the modules.

[Marconos]

...

The point where your argument fails is that having high pollution will increase the difficulty. Sure you can handle small, hell maybe even medium biters no problem, but I can promise you that the large ones, in quantity, can easily overwhelm any laser defense system and put the rest of the base offline. Because you're not giving AF about pollution, it's safe to assume that bases are constantly churning out difficulty which will catch up to you later on in the game.

Playing with and without efficiency is night and day, based on the scale of your factory. I didn't used to think that Eff was OP until I played a modpack w/o access to the modules early game and I struggled dramatically in comparison. A lot of bad habits that I had picked up from their use started to pack up and I was very quickly having to redesign a lot of my base to compensate. I kid you not, I was able to get a difficulty modifier of -2 because I was producing no pollution at all a few hours after I got the modules.

I only play maps on max biters, my current map is at 150+ hours played at max biter settings. My pollution cloud is immense and before I went on a massive clearing spree I had 8 assemblers making piercing rounds non stop to keep up with my ammo requirements. I'm not at 100,000 big spitters killed and climibing. Did I mention I did all this with no solar power and no lasers, no efficiency. The bugs aren't smart and can easily be handled in the game. So I don't find the point about not being able to hold up under an onslaught valid ... (BTW: over 200k alien artifacts in inventory currently).

[omega_haxors]

...

The point where your argument fails is that having high pollution will increase the difficulty. Sure you can handle small, hell maybe even medium biters no problem, but I can promise you that the large ones, in quantity, can easily overwhelm any laser defense system and put the rest of the base offline. Because you're not giving AF about pollution, it's safe to assume that bases are constantly churning out difficulty which will catch up to you later on in the game.

Playing with and without efficiency is night and day, based on the scale of your factory. I didn't used to think that Eff was OP until I played a modpack w/o access to the modules early game and I struggled dramatically in comparison. A lot of bad habits that I had picked up from their use started to pack up and I was very quickly having to redesign a lot of my base to compensate. I kid you not, I was able to get a difficulty modifier of -2 because I was producing no pollution at all a few hours after I got the modules.

I only play maps on max biters, my current map is at 150+ hours played at max biter settings. My pollution cloud is immense and before I went on a massive clearing spree I had 8 assemblers making piercing rounds non stop to keep up with my ammo requirements. I'm not at 100,000 big spitters killed and climibing. Did I mention I did all this with no solar power and no lasers, no efficiency. The bugs aren't smart and can easily be handled in the game. So I don't find the point about not being able to hold up under an onslaught valid ... (BTW: over 200k alien artifacts in inventory currently).

I've actually seen a person with a similar situation where they had a massive pollution cloud and almost no base defence. They were using the AI of the enemies and only putting defence on one part of the base, that's it. Abusing the pathfinding allows for some pretty powerfully (and sometimes comically!) effective setups.

As effective as it is, though, i'm not going to respect it as a valid tactic as far as balance is concerned due to the fact that one small change to the AI code would render a bases' defence completely useless. It's like saying that an extremely end-game item is broken in the early game because you spawned it in.

I'm going off a bit of an assumption here, so feel free to respond with counter-points.

[Nasabot]

For some time I thought efficiency modules are OP too, but actually, they are not.

If you want to make the "perfect factory" you will not use any efficiency module at all, but instead productivity modules everywhere(exception oil drills), because you will have such a big solar farm and such a big defense, that energy and polution wont matter.

Productivity modules are the only modules, which improves the overall quality of your factory, because polution, energy and also craft speed can be made irrelevant.

[gheift]

I once did the math for marathon mod: using efficiency module 1 in buildings needs more resources than building the needed solar panel and accumulator. The only advantage is less pollution.

[Adil]

Productivity modules are the only modules, which improves the overall quality of your factory, because polution, energy and also craft speed can be made irrelevant.

Well, need for resources can be made irrelevant as well. And productivity modules got nerfed below ground over the time. 2.5 longer crafting time, 4 times more energy for a 0.4 of some crap like iron stick? Really? Not to mention the cost of those four productivity modules.
At the same time, you can place 20 times more assemblers, stuff them with dirt-cheap mk1 green modules and have them churn out like 50 times more goods (than productive factory) per same period of time.
All is needed is a resource train long enough.

[bobucles]

Oh hey, this thread got bumped back up? Time to chime in.

Efficiency modules are OP, but not because of electricity savings. A key feature of game progression is the struggle between biter evolution and player research. Efficiency modules short out that difficulty curve, allowing the player to swing ahead in the tech race. Granted if efficiency modules did not change pollution, then they'd probably not find much use other than as a novelty to solar arrays small. They currently have no use to help speed/prod modules, as their energy penalty far outstrips any hope of an efficiency module reigning it in.

[cartmen180]

Just like the research system I feel the modules are just a placeholder.

[Nasabot]

Well, need for resources can be made irrelevant as well.

Yes, but if you can decide between lower resource consumption and lower energy consumpion, saving resources is more useful, because you have less pressure expanding your rail network and fighting biters. In the current game, energy does not matter really much, as you can build more and more solar panels/accumulators.

On a sidenote, you must not forget, that productivity modules actually reduce energy consumption and pollution of former product lines.
For instance, if you have 2 productivity modules in your research labs, all your science packs energy consumption is reduced by ~17%. This means, that in some cases productivity modules might actually reduce total energy consumption and pollution!)

In the current state the high end solution is:

-productivy EVERYWHERE
-except oil drills, where you probably want speed (assuming you run at 0,1/s)
(-module stations with speed)

However, not even I, as a perfectionist^^, use this strategty, but instead:

3 productivity + 1 speed for most products(its the "reason solution", the golden middleway, because the speed module heavily counteracts the speed penalty. The +50% speed actually DOUBLES the crafting speed of your facilities and therfore reduces energy consumpion and pollution by a lot, as those factors are time based)

Also I use a lot of efficiency modules in mining and oil drills, but this is because I am too lazy to exchange them^^

If Id play an infinte game, Id tend towards the strategy I proposed and this strategy has no room for efficiency modules. You have to know, the more you expand your "area of influence" you push back biter colonies, thus making your pollution more and more irrelevant(because the absorption of pollution grows)

However, I do not say only productivity is always the best solution, because in some cases you want to reduce pollution because of attacks. But I highly suggest using productivitymodules in most cases, espacally in facilities which do not produce a lot of pollution like furnances and science labs.


In an infinite game, efficiency and also speed modules are not that great.
I hope that energy becomes a more important factor (see my suggestion: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=17499) and also Id like to see speed modules improved.

What I suggest:

-efficiency modules do not reduce pollution anymore (assuming energy becomes more valueable and limited, see my thread) (like -50% energy, and -0% pollution)
-speed modules reduce total pollution, because of the faster production (like +50% speed, +70% energy +0% pollution)
There is another point why speed modules are not that great and this is the low production time of a lot of items(0,5sec) where inserter easily become the bottleneck. Also just building more facilities allows you to bypass speed modules completly. It would be great if speed modules allow you to reduce pollution.