[0.12.x][v0.12.11] Bob's Warfare mod

[bobingabout]

To properly upgrade turret damage on new turrets I needed to make it two stage load - first one removes upgrade techs other adds new turrets that use gun turret damage upgrades. There is no problem if mod is used from start of the game.
It's kind tricky but works with drawback of need to research gun turret damage upgrades again.

Ah, but, does removing the old research undo the learned effect in an old game? This is why I wanted to see if it was possible to read the current stat multiplies and apply them to the new turrets.

[orzelek]

To properly upgrade turret damage on new turrets I needed to make it two stage load - first one removes upgrade techs other adds new turrets that use gun turret damage upgrades. There is no problem if mod is used from start of the game.
It's kind tricky but works with drawback of need to research gun turret damage upgrades again.

Ah, but, does removing the old research undo the learned effect in an old game? This is why I wanted to see if it was possible to read the current stat multiplies and apply them to the new turrets.

Yes - un-researching tech removes the effects from current game. It's the reason why it needs to be done as 2-step process.

When I tried to remove research and add upgrades to new turrets they had the multiplier removed like they had it before which lead to lowered damage. Since data for prototypes is first then control script that can modify research state game subtracted upgrade effects also from turrets that didn't have them added before since they weren't there when upgrades were made.

[bobingabout]

I think I've figured it out. Going to run this as a migration script to test (Havn't made a new turret yet, so testing on laser, see what happens.)

Code: Select all

for index, force in pairs(game.forces) do
  local modifier = force.getturretattackmodifier("gun-turret")
  force.setturretattackmodifier("laser-turret", modifier)
end

Edit: Yup, seems to do the job.

[killwort]

I've played for some time with 1.4.4 and it seems that high-end armor/shield is very overpowered. I've made mk5 power armor with 4 mk4 fusion gens and 16 mk6 shields and I can run into any, even biggest, alien base and stay there for like 5 minutes surrounded by oversized biters/spitter not to mention worms (usually base "ends" earlier than my shield meter hits 50%). Combined with newly introduced ammo and lasgun this makes endgame alien extemination piece of cake - you run like crazy around your base just effortlessly wiping any signs of life.
IMHO ammo/lasgun is OK, as it is in line with aliens' resists and moreover you need to develop ammo delivery system for turrets (if you use them), but armor/shields are quite imbalanced, as no alien can overcome then in any sensible way (despite that you need tremendous research and resources to make these items).

[bobingabout]

I'm thinking of making the research costs even more insane. I'm planning on adding an "Alien Research Lab" or whatever, that uses the new coloured artifacts as research material. This will help offset it a little.

But over-all, I agree... I think the Armor itself is fine(Maybe a tweak could be needed on the resistances), but the modules you put in it are overpowered, Especially the shields and reactors. Batteries not so much, but the x5 per step quickly means you need fewer and fewer. A MK6 battery at the moment is equivelent to 3125 MK1s, which is excessive.

[killwort]

Well, batteries >MK3 are really not useful. In my setup I had 10 MK6 batts, but they didn't discharge anyway. Reactors were able to sustain output required for 8 laser turrets plust shield recharge (I didn't try to match generation to consumption, I've set up temporary automatic line for producing all the stuff, and made like one stack of each).

By the way, maybe you should add new automatic weaponry, 'cause vanilla lasers are quite inefficient compared to your handguns and are able to kill only smallest kinds of biters. High power consumption will drain reactors/batteries and effectively fight in-combat shield regeneration (MK6 can recharge really fast, practically allowing you to wipe 2-3 lair alien base without significant shield drain).

[bobingabout]

By the way, maybe you should add new automatic weaponry

I plan to.

[bobingabout]

I did some tests sitting in an enemy base, and watching what happens with my shields.

The way the shields in the game seems to work is that it fully depleates one shield before another takes any damage. With this system, adding more and more shield modules means the more you have that can be charged, the faster the total shields charge, and there comes a point where the enemies can't hurt you fast enough to reduce the shield any further, if you have enough power to supply them.

With the current set up, even with a single MK4 fusion reactor and about 10 MK6 shield modules, you get stuck in this loop.


Okay, there's basically 2 ways I can handle the ballance with the new armor and modules.

what I've currently added:
Upgraded shields increase in both Capacity and flow.
Upgrading your power supply is required for either adding more shields, or upgrading them.
Upgrading your shields increases how many hits you can take before they run out, and allows them to charge faster.
The limit of how strong you are depends on a combination of how many shields you have, what level your shields are, and if you can keep them powered.

1. Upgraded shields increase in capacity, but not flow.
upgrading power supply only effects how many you can charge at once.
upgrading your shields only means you can take more hits before they run out.
The limit of how strong your defence is depends primarilly on how many shield modules you have. (Recharge rate will be slow, so you're relying more on the buffer and recharging out of combat.)

2. Upgraded shields increase in flow, but not capacity.
Upgrading your power supply is required for upgraded shields.
upgrading your shields means they recharge faster.
The limit of how stong your defence is depends primarilly on the shield's level, and being able to keep them powered.


Another point I should mention that I haven't debated on here yet is the "Energy per shield unit" value, it's power consumption required for a single health unit of shield power.
By default, the MK1 takes 20J per shield unit, and the MK2 takes 30J. I changed this to a flat 20J for every shield module level, because I didn't see it as much of an "upgrade" if it becomes less efficient as you make them "better".
I supose the increased cost to recharge them is there for a reason, the MK2 effectively recharges at the same rate as the MK1 with tripple the capacity, but takes 50% more power to do it. knowing this fact, I'd rather just have more MK1 shield modules that are fully powered than upgrade to the MK2s. This is why I changed it to be 20J for all levels, but then that gives you the invincible due to recharge rate issue. To note, it takes 4.5 times as long to recharge a MK2 shield over a MK1 shield.

When you have a grid of 16x16 like in the MK3 power suit, it becomes too easy to put in enough modules to effectively make yourself invincible, the best way to solve the issue on such a scale would be to go with option 1 from that debate, to better be able to fend off more, harder enemies, you need to be able to recharge them faster, therefore you'll need a bigger power supply as well as more shield modules, but even in this case on the option 1 that's just more buffer room.

I suppose the answer is to set a universal recharge rate, and then nerf my higher levels of fusion reactor? Perhaps my MK4 should only be twice as powerful as a MK1 instead of 20 times? Or perhaps like my logistic robots, MK2 is 2x, MK3 is 3x and MK4 is 4x the quality of a MK1. I'd probably want to change all the recipes though, go to the "Upgrade" system where it only requires 1 of the previous tier to be upgraded, rather than requiring 2 to at least double the stats.

EDIT: I just did a test. I surrounded myself with a ring of enemies constantly attacking me, to keep my shields up I required 22 shield modules. with the current set up, that required 18480W power to be generated to keep me alive. If the MK4 Fusion reactors are reduced to 3KW, I would need more than 6 to keep me alive. I only had 4. Basically, betteries were keeping me alive, and sure enough when the batteries ran out of power, the shields failed, within moments, then I died seconds later. So yeah, I think it's an issue with my power systems being overpowered, not the shields themselves.

[British_Petroleum]

yeah i get all the enemies spawning when using both bobs enemies and dytech-war. Are you planning on a another tier of enemy(s)?

[Degraine]

I think the biggest problem is the sheer size of the grids in your later armours. I felt spoiled by an embarrassment of riches when I had just 10x10 to work with.

[bobingabout]

well, the grid size is a bit of an issue, but that's part of the point in upgrading, right?

[killwort]

Maybe you should add more stuff insertable into armor? I.e. better nightvision (without eye-burning-acid-green night time effect), better spotlight (usable when zoomed out), omni-light (omnidirectional light), better exoskeleton (3-4x speed is much appreciated, as far as tanks are slow and vulnerable compared to well-equipped player), better defence systems (already discussed). Maybe micro-roboport (I've seen some mod to do that). Inventory size upgrades (as far as I know it is impossible, but who knows ). Active radar should be fine too (increase player to fog of war distance). Some alien-reppelant would be great (aliens do not attack player or even avoid him during pathifinding).

[Takezu]

So i'm Standing in my Base looking at at my GUNturrets that killing the bugs with Bobs Ammo so nicly and got thinking, there are 7 different Rockets that i won't use because i've no use for the Rocketlauncher, the Combatshotgun is way to effektiv. Would be nice to have a Rocketturret. And if it would have the same range as the laser i could get rid of that damn thing.

Nothing against lasers but i prefer conventional ammuniton.
Would also be nice to have a better Radar, any chance that one or the other or both could be added?

[Degraine]

If you're interested in new radar, I would suggest Radar 2.0. I like its division of the buildings into separate roles.

[Takezu]

Degaine what i thought of was more or less the standart Radar with more Range and more Energy cost, nothing fancy.
Thing is it would fit to have a MK2 - 4/5 Radar as you do with most other buildings, and it would fit within the mod.
At least thats what i think, no need for an other mod then.

[bobingabout]

New update to 1.5

I can't even remember what I added anymore. New better night vision, modular solar panels, and turrets I think.

go check it out.

[Pandamonium]

New update to 1.5
New better night vision, modular solar panels, and turrets I think.

Is there a way to enable these in an existing game?

EDIT: Ignore me... found it....

[bobingabout]

New update to 1.5
New better night vision, modular solar panels, and turrets I think.

Is there a way to enable these in an existing game?

EDIT: Ignore me... found it....

Yes, Migration scripts should automatically add the new content to an existing game

[PadainFain]

I'm getting an error when running with the Warfare mod. It's barfing on this prototype code:

Code: Select all

function bob_gun_turret_extension(inputs)
return
{
  layers =
  {
    gun_turret_extension(inputs),
    bob_gun_turret_extension_mask(inputs),
    gun_turret_extension_shadow(inputs)
  }
}
end

Error: turrets.lua:45 attempt to call global 'gun_turret_extension' (a table value).

12.0 and 12.1 affected.

[orzelek]

I'm getting an error when running with the Warfare mod. It's barfing on this prototype code:

Code: Select all

function bob_gun_turret_extension(inputs)
return
{
  layers =
  {
    gun_turret_extension(inputs),
    bob_gun_turret_extension_mask(inputs),
    gun_turret_extension_shadow(inputs)
  }
}
end

Error: turrets.lua:45 attempt to call global 'gun_turret_extension' (a table value).

12.0 and 12.1 affected.

You are using treefarm mod.
You need to grab patched version of it without glue gun to make it work or use bob's workaround and add bob's warfare mod as optional dependency to treefarm.