Friday Facts #84 - The wedding day preprations

[Alekthefirst]

Waves of up to 500 enemies, cause otherwise this whole afford would be useless.

500? Yes, why not?

I like the idea.
Introducing sudden paranoia about some massive biter army waiting out there for you will surely intensify a playthrough, and force the player to build radar outposts everywhere.
Roboports and auto-replace of walls makes much more sense when you need a 2 layer deep defence system consisting of 5 layer thick walls and three lines of laser turrets to survive

[Ojelle]

Tbh I prefer large groups of enemys too. A few big ones looks kinda silly. (looks silly in my mind when thinking about it)

[Drury]

@kovarex The new beam effect is great! By the way, I am wondering what is the meaning of "give us a lot of freedom if we want to use on other places in the game"? It is better if you could provide some example. Thank you very much:D

I mean, that it could be used in some factory machinery in the future.

Remember that tesla coil turret mod you were so excited about? That, please

[Marconos]

Tbh I prefer large groups of enemys too. A few big ones looks kinda silly. (looks silly in my mind when thinking about it)

I agree with this ... of course, I'm not adverse to the idea of 100+ of the big ones coming at one time. That could be interesting.

Keep up the great work guys. Love the game.

[bobingabout]

I read most of what you have in the news post, and basically think "that sounds good" to most of it.

The only thing that really concerns me is Behemoth biters/spitters. You claim you're going to create an optimisation by creating a bigger bitter, how are you going to do this exactly? Are you going to phase out the apearance of the small and medium, and perhaps even large biters as the bigger ones start to apear, hence forcing the game to send only the larger ones, reducing the size of the total army?

I would like to know the stats on these Behemoth biters/spitters if it's not too much to ask... their health, speed, size, resistances, attack damage etc.... colours, you know, so I can compare it with things I've done in my Enemies mod.

[Weresmilodon]

The way i imagine it works is, that each type of alien is worth a certain amount of points. When a raid is being sent, how many, and what kind, is determined by how many points of irritation (or whatever) the alien grouping have. Once the points gets beyond a certain level, a larger critter, worth more points, is sent instead of a smaller, cheaper one.

The optimization would be by reducing the amount of path-finding, and possibly other data kept to remember and guide the attack.

And here is where i have to disagree with the people who want more, more, more. Most of the time, you're not going to see the attack, nevermind participate. Yet it still eats the same resources to happen. Reducing the number by introducing a more powerful creature is the logical response. The alternative is no optimization, or reduced attacks. (Though perhaps this should be moddable for those who want to drown in aliens)

I, for one, also would like for the focus of the game to not be forgotten. This isn't "Alien Shooting Game 2102", or "Tower Defence Game 1762". This is Factorio, Listen to that name. Taste it. FACT-TO-RI-O.

Factorio have never been about anything other then building and optimizing factories to me. The aliens are a nuisance, but one I'm willing to deal with when i have to. The [strikethrough]Unobtanium[/strikethrough] Alien Artifact have never felt like anything more the a placeholder for something yet to come. A reason to go out and slaughter aliens by the hundreds, if not thousands without any other reason. Perhaps, an artificial lengthening of the game, though i don't think that really all that likely.

And, man, what's with me this morning? Typing more then i usually do in months like this...

[Kokelvogel]

...

I, for one, also would like for the focus of the game to not be forgotten. This isn't "Alien Shooting Game 2102", or "Tower Defence Game 1762". This is Factorio, Listen to that name. Taste it. FACT-TO-RI-O.

...

Absolutely true for me, too.

I stumbled across factorio via worth a buy and was fascinated by the complexity of the building mechanics. After playing some time without mods, I have finally given in and implemented peace mod, since I've found that I want to have a chance to just go lego.

I might switch back if I want to explore the fighting aspects, then again I might not ... because I already own any number of games where I can bash pixels to my heart's content.

This doesn't mean that I feel that the fighting aspect of the game is not relevant to other people who have a different approach and I am certainly not trying to tell anyone what to do or how they should play. But seeing how vocal those are who want more biters/different biters and stuff, I think it is time to remind everybody that some of us couldn't care less and would rather have more of the cool factory stuff

And finally, I am very excited about all the effort you are putting into the game. I am hoping for you guys that the "wedding" with Steam goes well. You certainly deserve financial stability/rewards for your great work. So, what do you want for a gift? The fake silver salt shaker or the facsimile plastic "David" statuette?

[Weresmilodon]

I stumbled across factorio via worth a buy and was fascinated by the complexity of the building mechanics. After playing some time without mods, I have finally given in and implemented peace mod, since I've found that I want to have a chance to just go lego.

I assume you mean this peace mod? I've looked at it myself, but i feel like it goes a bit too far. Wyrm had a good suggestion though; having the aliens spawn on top of the Unobtanium ore, so you have to kick them off if you want it.

See, i don't mind the combat itself. I mind that it's forced on us. In the beginning it's reasonable. You're polluting the environment, and irritating the inhabitants, so they strike back. Or you're expanding into their territory, so they defend it. This i don't mind.

It's the latter part that i don't like. The "Oh, i need 50 Artifact, best go attack every gathering of aliens i can find, and rip them out of their rotting corpses." part. It feels forced. Unnecessary.

This is why i like the idea Wyrm had. Let the artifacts be mined and processed like other ores, but make them attractive to the inhabitants. Let the aliens build their bases on those ore patches, and force the conflict that way instead. It would feel much more natural then the arbitrary "best slaughter a few dozen gatherings/villages/cities for their goodies until i have at least this many".

This doesn't mean that I feel that the fighting aspect of the game is not relevant to other people who have a different approach and I am certainly not trying to tell anyone what to do or how they should play. But seeing how vocal those are who want more biters/different biters and stuff, I think it is time to remind everybody that some of us couldn't care less and would rather have more of the cool factory stuff

Yeah, that's why i responded this time. I don't want Factorio to turn into Yet Another Alien Shooter. And the way it sounded in the thread, it felt like it might be a good idea to remind people that there is more to the game. That it has another focus.

Now, i don't really think the Devs would actually change the gameplay focus all that much over a few comments. They have shown good judgement before when it comes to these kind of things. But when all you hear is the same thing repeated all the time, even if just from a tiny portion of the playerbase, and no one ever bother to protest, or say something else? Well, what are you supposed to think?

[ninjadindon]

Will you implement RTS like combat robots selection, move orders for better micro-managements ?

I would love to see very expensive tank (to make and reload) to be part of your defense and be able to palce them dynamicaly around your base.
Furthermore, a "refill station" made of long arms inserters would be a fun thing.

[Kokelvogel]

I assume you mean this peace mod? I've looked at it myself, but i feel like it goes a bit too far.

That's the one As for going too far, that again is a question of how you want to play. Sure, the original game forces you to balance your gameplay, even putting you under a certain amount of pressure time-wise. So obviously, the developers meant it to be that way. And I am aware that one might justifiably argue that peace mod is ... a bit cheating?

But ... if you notice that you feel that having to deal with the aliens is nothing but an unwelcome, often boring chore? If you notice that for you the true action lies in building the best lay-out you can (only to notice that you screwed up somehow and have to start over ), then peace mod is a pretty good option.

Wyrm had a good suggestion though; having the aliens spawn on top of the Unobtanium ore, so you have to kick them off if you want it.

See, i don't mind the combat itself. I mind that it's forced on us. In the beginning it's reasonable. You're polluting the environment, and irritating the inhabitants, so they strike back. Or you're expanding into their territory, so they defend it. This i don't mind.

It's the latter part that i don't like. The "Oh, i need 50 Artifact, best go attack every gathering of aliens i can find, and rip them out of their rotting corpses." part. It feels forced. Unnecessary.

Don't get me wrong, this is not about being an in-your-face pacifist or holier-than-thou-moralist. But I sincerely dislike fighting if I attack something under the circumstances as described above. I can go with the self-denfense aspect of the early game (I crashed, I need to put up some stuff to get rescued, I accept the consequences) but like you I am somewhat disturbed by having to go after aliens just to harvest their artifacts. I could go with a scenario where you have two factions of aliens and you ally with one of them and fight the others.

Haha, and don't hold me to this wanna-be high moral ground when playing other games ...

This is why i like the idea Wyrm had. Let the artifacts be mined and processed like other ores, but make them attractive to the inhabitants. Let the aliens build their bases on those ore patches, and force the conflict that way instead. It would feel much more natural then the arbitrary "best slaughter a few dozen gatherings/villages/cities for their goodies until i have at least this many".

This is my point of view (and need not apply to anybody else): That doesn't really change the moral dilemma. If slaughtering the aliens for sitting on the artifacts feels wrong, slaughtering them for sitting on the ore would feel just as wrong. So that solution wouldn't do a thing for me.

I love the idea of alien ore, though. Mining it and processing it really adds to the game's depth.

Yeah, that's why i responded this time. I don't want Factorio to turn into Yet Another Alien Shooter. And the way it sounded in the thread, it felt like it might be a good idea to remind people that there is more to the game. That it has another focus.

In a nutshell: Yup

Now, i don't really think the Devs would actually change the gameplay focus all that much over a few comments. They have shown good judgement before when it comes to these kind of things. But when all you hear is the same thing repeated all the time, even if just from a tiny portion of the playerbase, and no one ever bother to protest, or say something else? Well, what are you supposed to think?

No, I guess they wouldn't fundamentally change the gameplay just because of a couple of comments If it were that "easy" we would have to make very, very sure the "let's have pink ponies faction" never gets a toehold -.-

[diego-fm]

about the path-finding optimizations, i'll share what i would test, but it's brain-storming, athough i have programming experience.

Mainly two changes, path-finding in idle mode (at biter base), and path finding in attack mode.

First one maybe it's good enough, but i would do the idle movement with a direction vector, wich would change every few seconds (to make the rumbling about in the base) and very short path finding in that direction, say for example, generate a point in 1-2 tiles in the vector direction, and path to there, when it reaches, another one an so forth. Maybe it's not worth, but came into my mind.

The big one is the attack mode, assuming the problem is that the paths are much longer, and multiple, and through forest, 2 options, generate the paths BEFORE the attack starts, that means, when you launch an attack, starts generating paths to every biter/spitter that will attacks, but keep them idling in the meantime, and when all paths are ready, send them. don't recalculate the path until they aproach player base, or something changes in the map near their path, and if that hapens, path-find between 2 "waypoints", to sort the obstacle, and if that "fix" is long, re-path. when aproaching player base resume normal path-finding, as there could be more interactivity.

the second option is to create kind of a tunnel for advancing through forest. generate one path through the forest, and make all biters follow the same path, but when aproaching player base "branch out", one path for each enemy. This would reduce path calculations to one for the horde, and i don't give a sh*t how they reach my base, and probably won't even see it, out of vision range. Practical case, when launching an attack, generate two points, one near the bitter base, other near player base following normal attack directives, path-find between these two, and then every bug path-finds to first point, follow precalculates path to the second, and then path-finds to attack. This should avoid the multiple long forest path-finding.

Also, what about doing these path findings in a separate thread, as they aren't needed in the moment, the biters can be "idling at base in main thread", and shouldn't interfere with anything else, and whould only need read access, and race conditions shouldn't be a problem, to me its aceptable to use slightly old data (last second or so) to path find around a place outside my base, and the data shouldn't change too quickly to become a problem.

Again, i'm brainstorming whithout knowledge of the code behind, what i've said can't be used against me in a trial, or forum discussion or the like

just my two cents.

[Ledjlale]

As sslik said, one thing that lead to my buy was the potential on the number of enemies and their reactions to your actions on their planet.
I dreamed about Starship Trooper when they are surrounded https://danhairfield.files.wordpress.co ... -16-pm.png

[Grimshad]

@kovarex

Is there a timeframe on when we will have the option for player or force separate technology? This is one of the major features i'm looking forward to for multiplayer. To be able to "race" my friends and build separate factories to see who can accomplish the same goal faster or more efficiently.

EDIT: Nevermind, I found this: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 828#p63828

[Nemoricus]

The idea of big, powerful aliens attacking in small groups instead of lots of weak aliens attacking in large groups isn't a bad, but it's worth noting that the two are not interchangeable.

Large groups of weak enemies tend to form chains in the current version of Factorio. This means that only a few are present at the head of the group, and since they die quickly, it's relatively easy to defend against them.

Small groups of powerful enemies, on the other hand, will last significantly longer, so they actually have time to reach the defenses and cause damage. This changes the balance of attacks, and while it isn't a problem, it's something that should be considered. This has the potential to have greater ramifications than its description as an optimization trick would suggest.

[ssilk]

I see that the other way around: If there are so many spiters, that they can build a circle, they are able to create a severe damage.

BTW: The effects with many but weak vs. small but strong group take only visible into account with the reloading time of the weapons. If a weapon take long to reload, but can hit only one enemy, then a shoot will "overkill" the enemy (e.g. shoot is 1000 hit points, but enemy needs only 10 to be killed). If then the reloading time is long, a big group of weak enemies will be really dangerous, even if our firepower is 100 times stronger than needed. With small but strong enemies this effect is much weaker.