Endgame concerns[POLL]

[MF-]

Endgame too blurry for me to get concerned or happy about anything as well.

With so many commenters saying they won't vote, I'm not sure
what the significance of those values would be.

Should have included "It's too early to say" option

[ssilk]

Polls are difficult.

[bigyihsuan]

They should have the "Save the Colonists" option for Campaign mode, it makes more sense there.

You crash land, you explorer a bit, research, build a huge factory, research space rockets and rocket defense, and finish the game's story with saving colonists.

[_0rbit_]

I am very worried about the whole endgame subject, especially as until now I have loved the direction of the game. The current endgame concept does not seem to fit very well with the rest of the game. If it would be my call I would consider the whole game concept once again and specify another concept in which colonization of space has happened in the past, for a good reason...

In short I would rather see the following scenario:

1) Synopsis: Hundreds of years of population growth has polluted the planet. Resources became scarce. A big war broke out. The planet became unable to support life. A few thousand lucky ones could escape to orbit in shuttles. After a handful of generations, you (among others) are sent from space to recolonize the planet.

2) Goal: You have to recycle materials, depollute the atmosphere and water. Replant the forrests while battling the mutant creatures who want to prevent you from doing so.

3) The end goal has been reached once the planet is once again capable of supporting life. The mutants must be kept at bay and living spaces and goods must be available for the space inhabitants.

The following changes would have to be made to the game:

In the early stages there will be little to no trees. Resources will be available, but large areas of the map will be covered in junk. Junk that can be broken down into bits, mostly fuel, metals and the occassional piece of wood. Resource fields below junk can not be accessed until the junk is removed.

Another game elements would have to be introducted; an atmosphere and water generation etc.

I think 90% of the elements of this type of game would already be there. Polution is already there; it should just be set to MAX_POLLUTION_LEVEL and then slowly be reduced by machines cleaning the atmosphere etc

[Drury]

That actually sounds even less like Factorio - when I imagine the factorio guy, I just can't picture a nice guy who'd care for others or the crappy environment of the current piece of space rock he's exploiting. He's like this grumpy sweaty hairy man in a suit who lands on this planet and destroys it because that's his job for whatever reason, in a communist kind of way (heavy industry fetishism). The game is not exactly an ecologist propaganda, on any layer.

Ever since the first time I played Factorio, I couldn't help but be reminded of Warzone 2100 on every step, it's eerie atmosphere. You have this feeling that somewhere beyond your city of smog and decay, somewhere beyond the biter nests, there is this mysterious presence on the planet. Something bigger and scarier than you could imagine in your wildest dreams. Something that indirectly caused biters to become the dominant species. They were not a part of the plan, but their presence isn't unwelcome. It's you that is not a part of the equation. You're just a nuisance, a random variable that sprang up one day. You have to be removed.

Your response? "I don't have all day, bring it on. I want the whole planet's resources extracted by ten" as you hop into your tank, all gassed up, locked, loaded, ready to roll. For the glory of progress and prosperity, may our chimneys never stop smoking.

Story-wise, I must say I liked the "go to space and become a rich bastard" ending better than "saving the day" ending but didn't like how vague it seemed gameplay-wise.

[Mattyrogue]

I didn't vote, because no given point fits my opinion. I think the whole idea isn't ready to judge it. I'll wait some FFF's until I make my call
Till now i'm fine with the course Factorio is taking. My only concern is, that it's going to be "space-heavy". I don't like space games... I never did. Thats the reason, why I haven't played KSP yet. If, and only if, the only thing you have to do in space is to build some little factories on those platforms and defend them from asteroids and such, then I'm fine with it.

Keep in mind, that this is MY opinion. If you like space games, then this is fine. But you have to play them without me. I don't want to offend those people in any way.

I am really excited about what the devs are going to do =)

Well I kind of went with this point too, but threw my lot in with the 'puzzle' element. To be honest this needs to be a 'multiple choice' question, overall I'm quite uncomfortable with the idea of the endgame revolving around building and sending out this 'spaceship' and it equalling a 'game victory' state. I'd rather bring the colonists back and it opens up a new phase of Factorio; where you actually get into some Anno-style gameplay (making various commodities and farmland while protecting yourself from increasingly dangerous indigenous wildlife) than having it equate to what is essentially a 'game over'. Or better yet; elongate the researching and allow yourself to launch another 'Pathfinder' ship to another planet to start a fresh factory without the need for a new game (while allowing you to travel back and forth between the two for resources, though this could be tied into making expansions and travelling with aerial vehicles)

[Yaua]

I voted for the "Nothing; I love it" because honestly : for the things they talked to us, first, it's far from being all definitive, and second, it's looks like interesting for me. They only showed us the direction they want to follow and I'm happy with it for now, and there's nothing I'm really afraid of : I trust them enough to "keep the Factorio spirit" (in fact, I fully trust them). I don't think they'll make a part of the game which would make the game really "different" from what it is and feel now (there is no reason they would do that) or who could be boring/frustating. Knowing this, that's why I'm happy with what they said to us and are planning for now : with their spirit and work, I think it could be great additions/extension to the actual game (and honnestly, I'm pretty excited to see more of what they are planning !).

[Cerus]

I find the whole space factory idea kind of bizarre. Seems like a really awkward thing to plop into the game flow, especially as an end goal.

[lagagne72]

I must say, _Orbit_'s post is pretty awesome. Imo it fits perfectly storywise, but also gives very logical and hard to reach endgame goals.

Switching to clean energy and then "terraforming" the planet / reintroducing earth-like life on the whole map is something that could take a lot of time and planning to do, all while posing new tweaking issues for the player (some risk/reward ratio between producing and polluting, similar to switching to solar panels because it is cleaner, but it produces less. there are probably a ton other energy sources/ production systems that the devs could come up with to fit this: tidal, wind, geothermic, whatever.)

even better, the game becomes about what you are ready to do to reach your goals. when you start, everything works with coal and pollutes a lot, then you switch to electricity and limit your coal consumption. in the grand scheme of things you'd need to pollute as little a possible to get the cleanest planet possible, but still, you need to get there!

on the other hand, if the endgame is to go to space and build a ship or rescue people, as said before it is unrelated to the whole factory you spent time building and improving, so it to me feels just disconnected from the main game. you could still go to space and do stuff there (maybe mine a metal that is only available there? and maybe actually have a mining field on a platform there)

anyway, just my 2 cents. but i really hope the devs consider orbit's idea for general goal in the game. it seems to just wrap everything up so perfectly

[ssilk]

The spaceship is of course not disconnected. For me it is very clear: You cannot built it, without the material from the ground.
So my imagination about this part is, that you eventually need constant swapping between spaceship and ground.

I think this will look about so:
- I need a space-platform. Ok, I need to manufacture many small platforms and bring it into the orbit.
- I need thrusters. Energy. Shields. Weapons. Cargo-space.
- That all needs to be produced. Brought to a shuttle and send into space. The factory is not able to do that yet. I have to built a lot of stuff on ground and in space.
- The produced stuff needs to be placed at the right position of the platform.
- The aliens meanwhile get stronger. I need to care about them too.
- Now I think this is fully equipped, I run a test.
- Test fails (of course), I need more equipment. Better equipment, higher tiers.
- The factory is not able to produce that yet. Return to step 3.

And so on. Until my spaceship starts.

If I'm right, I don't see, that there are problems. This is just an extension of the factory into space. If not, then I have misread something in the FFF's completely.

[Yaua]

The spaceship is of course not disconnected. For me it is very clear: You cannot built it, without the material from the ground.
So my imagination about this part is, that you eventually need constant swapping between spaceship and ground.

I think this will look about so:
- I need a space-platform. Ok, I need to manufacture many small platforms and bring it into the orbit.
- I need thrusters. Energy. Shields. Weapons. Cargo-space.
- That all needs to be produced. Brought to a shuttle and send into space. The factory is not able to do that yet. I have to built a lot of stuff on ground and in space.
- The produced stuff needs to be placed at the right position of the platform.
- The aliens meanwhile get stronger. I need to care about them too.
- Now I think this is fully equipped, I run a test.
- Test fails (of course), I need more equipment. Better equipment, higher tiers.
- The factory is not able to produce that yet. Return to step 3.

And so on. Until my spaceship starts.

If I'm right, I don't see, that there are problems. This is just an extension of the factory into space. If not, then I have misread something in the FFF's completely.

I fully agree with you, and your post explain well what I 'm thinking. Especially that the space-factory part of the game is only an extend of your main factory. Not a "new one" at all.

[slpwnd]

Thanks for the input guys. It is a good source of inspiration for us when we are talking about the endgame goal. We are aware of concerns mentioned in the discussion. However we believe that the endgoal we plan to do will be an appropriate way to end the game (if someone wants to end it - if not he can play further or just in the sandbox style).

I will share a bit more personal view on the matter. Last saturday we went for a lunch with kovarex and we were discussing (among other things) the endgoal. I was in the mood of doubting the whole thing. I was basically like - well we can just end the game by sending a shuttle to space (graphical concept shown in http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-73). The story could be matched easily, it would be way way less programming work and all the risk with making a wrong step with the endgame would be gone.

But then we talked and kovarex was insisting that our endgame plan is a good idea. In the end he gave me a simple question. "Do you thing that you would enjoy the endgame as we plan it?" (with the space platform and all that kind of stuff). And I said: "Yes, of course. If done well it will be a lot of fun. Same basic concepts and mechanics applied in a new environment." And that is it. He made me realize that we both personally believe it will be a good ending. I stopped being worried about some people not liking it because of this and others because of that. I believe I will really enjoy it. And if done well then hopefully many others will as well. This is one of the concepts we have used throughout the development of the game - doing the things we would like and just let the people who like the same kind of stuff join.

So yeah. It is impossible to satisfy everyone. We are after an endgame that we believe would be great. And we won't release something that we wouldn't enjoy personally. We could have easily taken a shortcut but we want to do the the things properly. Kovarex had a good point. We are not after a "good mediocre" ending. We are after (within our boundaries) something great, something new, pushing the boundary at least a bit. Let's see where it takes us=)

[ssilk]

And we won't release something that we wouldn't enjoy personally. We could have easily taken a shortcut but we want to do the the things properly. Kovarex had a good point. We are not after a "good mediocre" ending. We are after (within our boundaries) something great, something new, pushing the boundary at least a bit. Let's see where it takes us=)

It will be hard, but this game will be one of the biggest success in computer-game history if you keep this position.

[Drury]

Oh neat.

My plan kind of was to wrap this up just about now anyway.

It seems the overwhelming majority is against the idea of building a separate factory, the data on the rest of the irks is kind of even; there is no tendency towards any particular potential flaw.

As I said earlier - this one concern in particular is curious, since by all means you are not actually abandoning your factory, you're just focused on building a new one, just like when expanding towards new ore - your factory is still fully accessible the whole time. The wording in the poll doesn't even imply that you ever lose the access; you just focus on the spaceship.

As ssilk said, there will potentially be a way to swap between building spaceship and your factory. This is because devs explicitly said you will not board the ship on it's way towards the colonists; you'll build it, send it, stay down on the planet with your fingers crossed that the clunker makes it's way there and back on it's own. This implies you will have a way to interact with the ship while it's docked (has to be built somehow) but at the same time you'll have to return down to your factory so the ship can leave without you. This means that you can freely swap between the ship and the factory, which means there is no need to worry about losing it or leaving it behind.

I mean devs are yet to say how exactly the construction of the spaceship takes place, but logically, you won't be tied to it without any way to return back to your factory at any time. It will just be a sort of weird example of a basic coal expansion. You're building stuff far away from your main base but you're free to take a train back anytime.

[Blackspectre]

My concern is not listed in the poll.

I am worried that this ending feels cheaply forced and does not add very much complexity or challenge beyond what is even currently in the game. The problem is with scope. Despite building a spaceship and launching into space (and the -enormous potential that has) the scope of the game barely increases. I dont have to explore any more than I ever did. I dont have to plan any better than I ever did. I dont get any new interesting logistical decisions to make (other than perhaps land use efficiency, which is done already). I dont get access to any new or exciting FACTORY components. No new resources. Only 1 new challenge, which once I learn what "works" wont even be a challenge anymore. This definitive ending deprives the game of not only a significant chunk of its potential replay value, but also kind of punishes the clever player by saying "well, you figured out how to get a ship into space, now you are out of interesting things to do." The faster you accomplish that goal for the first time, the shorter the lifespan pf playtime on this game.
This stuff is game design 101. Never force your player to be done playing, and always give them something more to try to achieve.
If you want to save colonists terrific, but I implore you to not waste the magnificent potential of this game on something that really amounts to very little depth.
Remember, for each increase in scope that you can provide, you can unlock an exponentially greater number of choices, and therefore better experience, to the player.

[Drury]

New components, resources and research mechanic already confirmed.

The whole business about the ship being a giant autonomous drone seems actually pretty new and exciting to me now, even though it surprised me at first. You never really have to build a small base that'd have to go on for prolonged periods, withstanding asteroids, catching resources from it's surroundings and refining them, feeding it's engines, power plants, turrets... All without you being able to do anything, it does everything on it's own. Nope, you don't get to have that in basic Factorio at all.

[Blackspectre]

I guess you and I have a different version of the game then, because what you described there is almost -exactly- what basic factorio is. Lay everything down, and automate it without your interaction. Some of us already play the game (since there is relatively little else challenge to the game atm) to maximize space efficiency. I can tell you my factories autoharvest (to the fullest extent possible per resource patch), autocreate and self sustain without any interaction, generate power, etc. At this point, if I could get robots to lay down new structures based off of algorithims, I could literally make a factory that played itself. Without me. At all. Again, this is just more of the same. Very little depth and almost no additional scope added.

[Drury]

Robots placing miners down on ore fields on their own, without you having to place down blueprints, and connecting it to your factory via belt/train pathfinder? Sounds like a nifty mod, a bit too nifty to be real

O ye and they also shuffle to reorganize belts to increase throughput as needed, very nifty imdeed.

[ssilk]

@Blackspectre: We had now about half a year no new game content. And it could take another 3 month or so, until we have a stable 0.12, which finished multiplayer. The game is still alpha. The speed of development looks slow. The TODO-list is endless. What do you await? A finished, polished game with tons of content, surprising levels, a story...?
This is the simplest part, if the game is finished.
There are already tons of mods, the multiplayer brings some players to play self-created maps, and after that long waiting time the game will be ready to implement the missing features. And that will go then really, really fast. Cause they had made their homework. (*) Oh, they will be great. Per sure. :9

If it goes to my vision, the game dimension rises about factor 100 from now. Think to a game like OpenTTD, where you can zoom into the train stations and see the goods flowing. Compressed building is then no issue, it's luxury, cause you have so much space, that you need half an hour to run from one end to the other (with skeletons ). We handle now with big factories up to 50,000 items/minute. In my vision it is about five million... Well, that is MY vision, that also not everybody will like. But I trust them enough to know, if I have a vision, that they have then a similar or better, even if I don't know anything about that vision.

(*) Example: My job for the last 5 days was to rewrite an old converter, that it works under our new framework. We have about 20 of them in our current sprint. I decided to redo the whole converter logic. So a one day work lasts suddenly 5 days. But I redid the whole architecture of the job handling. Today I implemented, that the old converter logic runs with the new scheme. It did, nearly on the first turn. And need only one hour. I was surprise, how easy that was. So I took the second job and did it too. Also an hour. Simple calculation is now: Invest of 5 days to rework converter logic will spare us 12 days of rewrite, cause I estimate the rest of 17 converters to about 3 days remaining (a lot of buffer is included). And as side effect we can suddenly generate converter-logic spreadsheets for management-compatible presentation.

What I want to say is: Most of us cannot see, what they are doing, cause they work currently most times under the car. When that is ready, the car needs just to be painted and polished.

[Blackspectre]

To both of you, I feel that you didnt even bother to read what I wrote, as seems to VERY often be the case on these forums. I know that especially in ssilk's case, English is not the primary language, and I certainly sympathize with that, but I do believe you need to more closely read these things before responding sometimes.

A: At -no- point did I say that I have any mod that lays down buildings for me. What I said, was that would be the last piece of functionality I would need to 100% automate my factory to not need me at all.
Because ---->>that is the driving point of this game<<---- . AUTOMATION. So truly, if to this point you havent been playing with the notion of total automation behind your logistical decision making, well, then I feel you have entirely missed the spirit of this game. Several of us, having already found ways to greatly optimize our factories, added further fun to it by figuring out how to minimize the footprint. Some people have already gone so far as to make working computing with the binary logic systems. The point is, in order to squeeze more out of this game, many of us veteran players are going to need something bigger in scope and complexity than "Fit an automated factory into a small area", because we do that already.

B. @ssilk Again, at no point did I say that I expect a polished game or tons of content at this time, or even at any close time in the future. What concern I am expressing is that short-capping the end game at something that is basically "more of the same" is somewhat disappointing. The potential to expand this concept to greater scope of play, and more decisions and options for the player is staggering. I wouldnt even expect all of these possibilities to be explored, but geeze, to not even consider them is a tragedy. I can, off the top of my head, think of numerous ways in which the scope of the game could increase (both difficulty over time as well as the planning/development/logistics decisions) that could not only be true to the spirit of the game (Design, automate, and optimize a factory), but also keep adding to the choices, and therefore agency, that the player has.
So to re-iterate, I have no expectations to the quality of this game now, or any time in the near future, but I certainly wish to voice my sadness that this design decision inherently bottlenecks the potential of the game, and urge the developers to reconsider (not even reconsider the content, just reconsider making it "The End")