A bufferzone for freshness to have it count as fully fresh for some time

[Robosium]

TL;DR

A bufferzone to freshness that allows for some buffering of agricultural science and in it's production chain.

What?

A buffer zone of 20% (size subject to change in event of implentation) that if the item is still in there it is treated as fully fresh.
Only when freshness falls below 80% does the progress become inheritable in crafting and affecting science packs' science content.

Concept for buffer zone visualization

Factorio Freshness Buffer Concept.png (29.12 KiB) Viewed 213 times

I see three main ways it could be implemented
1. One variable system
Freshness is kept as a single variable.
For calculating freshness of crafting result the freshness percentages of inputs are multiplied by 1.25 (based on buffer size), values clamped to be between 0% and 100%, averaged, and used as freshness for the result of the reciepie
For freshness of stacks the current method is used.
For science amount in science pack freshness would be multiplied by 1.25 and clamped to between 0% and 100%
This approach would allow simpler computing but also increasing freshness via crafting/recycling, whether that's good or bad is up for debate.
2. Two variable system
Freshness is split into 2 variables.
Buffer: Worth 20% of freshness time, refreshed fully when crafting, decays first
Main: Worth 80% of freshness time, affects science in science packs, is inheritable through crafting, decays only when Buffer is empty
For calculating freshness of crafting result the Main part would use the current method while Buffer would just be set to it's maximum.
For freshness of stacks the current method is used separately for both parts
For science amount in science pack only Main would be used for calculation
This approach would cause freshness loss past buffer to not be recoverable by using the item in crafting but add an additional value to be kept track of in memory, would also allow buffer size to be item specific easier
3. Science only
When determining science amount in science pack freshness is multiplied by 1.25 before being clamped between 0% and 100%
Simplest solution, possibly so simple it'll feel like a quick and sloppy slap-patch job but it'll work

Why?

Currently agricultural science's tolerance for buffers in it's production chain is none (like absolutely none, not even a single tick) which is much lower for every other Gleba product's tolerance. This becomes an issue when you notice that nearly everything contains buffers and that the first step in producing agricultural science already puts the resources into a buffer. The current system feels closer to a bunch of separately designed systems having an unnoticed overlap than an intentional challenge to be overcome. This is also not an issue you can solve by just producing more science as the spoilage based decrease causes lower science density on belts which makes agricultural science require disproportionately greater amount of space on belts which is dealing with a symptom and not the root cause.

[sparr]

the first step in producing agricultural science already puts the resources into a buffer

Have you considered not doing that?

[evanrinehart]

Yes the idea in agriculture science is to minimize buffering to get the most science out of it. Adding a head start on spoilage would be just adding a "handicap" to give you a one time boost to performance. Unless you made the head start so long that you can get the potion researched entirely before it starts to spoil, which seems excessive.

[worph]

I understand how one could see this as an improvement.

But personally, having done a lot of work on Gleba I am firmly against anything like this.
The satisfaction of making almost 100% fresh science and sending it successfully to nauvis, quickly, efficiently and in larger quantities would not be the same challenge anymore.

Would that be more satisfying for beginners or/and people with OCD-tendencies? Probably.

[Alfonse215]

Currently agricultural science's tolerance for buffers in it's production chain is none (like absolutely none, not even a single tick) which is much lower for every other Gleba product's tolerance. This becomes an issue when you notice that nearly everything contains buffers and that the first step in producing agricultural science already puts the resources into a buffer. The current system feels closer to a bunch of separately designed systems having an unnoticed overlap than an intentional challenge to be overcome. This is also not an issue you can solve by just producing more science as the spoilage based decrease causes lower science density on belts which makes agricultural science require disproportionately greater amount of space on belts which is dealing with a symptom and not the root cause.

I'm not sure I understand the problem here. Yes, every delay on the production of bioflux impacts the freshness of science you generate, and thus reduces the effects of X packs per second of consumption.

... so what?

Like, why is this a problem? Why is it a problem that a true amount of 240 Ag science packs per second requires more than one belt? Why is this not just a problem you just live with? What's the downside?

I mean, the devs even gave you a crutch when it comes to Ag science: eggs. Eggs are produced at 100% freshness all the time, so as long as you're not sticking them on belts forever, they will compensate for any significant deficiencies in bioflux freshness.

In any case, your suggested numbers effectively remove the whole point of the transfer-of-freshness mechanic from the game. Well, mostly for Ag science, which is the only thing where this really matters.

The idea of spoilage is that you need to use things quickly and how quickly you're able to do so determines your reward. But using them quickly locally is not enough. You must do it up and down the supply chain; any time an item spends not being used is a loss of output. And how you logistically engage with intermediates will be based on their spoil time.

Yumako mash has the shortest meaningful spoil time: 3 minutes. As such, putting it on a belt (the "natural" way you'd use an intermediate) is discouraged if you're feeding the production of a spoilable (ie: bioflux). 20% of 180 seconds is 36 seconds. Even with red belts, you can move yumako mash a good 135 tiles before its freshness loss matters for anything. So you are no longer discouraged from basically making a "furnace stack" for yumakos. You can build more or less like you would anywhere else, as long as you make sure that the ratios favor over-consumption instead of over-production.

So... what's the point of having transfer of freshness as a mechanic if you render it so meaningless that it doesn't affect your logistics? If you're able to build "normally," and are not rewarded for building more time-efficiently, then why have the mechanic at all?

[Robosium]

the first step in producing agricultural science already puts the resources into a buffer

Have you considered not doing that?

I have but then I realised that rules out both agricultural towers AND player based farms for both of the Gleba fruit, so as far as I know that leaves no actual way to harvest the fruits

[Robosium]

Currently agricultural science's tolerance for buffers in it's production chain is none (like absolutely none, not even a single tick) which is much lower for every other Gleba product's tolerance. This becomes an issue when you notice that nearly everything contains buffers and that the first step in producing agricultural science already puts the resources into a buffer. The current system feels closer to a bunch of separately designed systems having an unnoticed overlap than an intentional challenge to be overcome. This is also not an issue you can solve by just producing more science as the spoilage based decrease causes lower science density on belts which makes agricultural science require disproportionately greater amount of space on belts which is dealing with a symptom and not the root cause.

I'm not sure I understand the problem here. Yes, every delay on the production of bioflux impacts the freshness of science you generate, and thus reduces the effects of X packs per second of consumption.

... so what?

Like, why is this a problem? Why is it a problem that a true amount of 240 Ag science packs per second requires more than one belt? Why is this not just a problem you just live with? What's the downside?

I mean, the devs even gave you a crutch when it comes to Ag science: eggs. Eggs are produced at 100% freshness all the time, so as long as you're not sticking them on belts forever, they will compensate for any significant deficiencies in bioflux freshness.

In any case, your suggested numbers effectively remove the whole point of the transfer-of-freshness mechanic from the game. Well, mostly for Ag science, which is the only thing where this really matters.

The idea of spoilage is that you need to use things quickly and how quickly you're able to do so determines your reward. But using them quickly locally is not enough. You must do it up and down the supply chain; any time an item spends not being used is a loss of output. And how you logistically engage with intermediates will be based on their spoil time.

Yumako mash has the shortest meaningful spoil time: 3 minutes. As such, putting it on a belt (the "natural" way you'd use an intermediate) is discouraged if you're feeding the production of a spoilable (ie: bioflux). 20% of 180 seconds is 36 seconds. Even with red belts, you can move yumako mash a good 135 tiles before its freshness loss matters for anything. So you are no longer discouraged from basically making a "furnace stack" for yumakos. You can build more or less like you would anywhere else, as long as you make sure that the ratios favor over-consumption instead of over-production.

So... what's the point of having transfer of freshness as a mechanic if you render it so meaningless that it doesn't affect your logistics? If you're able to build "normally," and are not rewarded for building more time-efficiently, then why have the mechanic at all?

The issue I have with using more belt space for agri science than any other science is that it is compensating for mistakes made earlier in the production chain, mistakes which as the game is set up are unavoidable.
If anything the extra belts of agri "solution" would give an even bigger bufferzone than I proposed. If you're using full belts to deliver science, then with just 1.5 belts dedicated to agri science you could use 66.(6)% fresh agri science which can be produced from 33.(3)% fresh bioflux and 100% fresh eggs, obviously you want to give some buffer for the couple handful of ticks of spoiling the eggs do and time spent in transit but if you've optimised things elsewhere letting yumako mash buffer for a minute would be totally reasonable.
If you're just using half belts for science then you only need 50% fresh agri science at time of consumption, which would let you use bioflux that's practicaly spoilt.
So forcing the players to compensate for mandatory mistakes actually tells them that they can make even bigger mistakes and still be punished the same amount.
I get that you don't like the flat 20% buffer zone size I just went with, devs could always adjust it to be smaller, or with implementation method 2 have it be something really small like 2% for yumako mash while having it bigger for other items, implementation method 3 is just applying a buffer zone to science only to make it possible to get full value out of it.
Talking of implementation method 3, that would mean that with 100% fresh eggs your bioflux would have to be over 60% fresh before you're absolutely boned, compare that to the minimal bioflux freshness of 33.(3)% you'd need when using 1.5 belts to mimic 1 belt of science. So implementing a buffer even if it's just for science would mean players are no longer forced into using extra belt space to get a full belt of science and as such have a reason to even further optimize their Gleba factories.

You picking up what I'm laying down or do I need to make a table that shows minimal bioflux freshness required to mimic a full belt of science with adding an extra half belt, a full belt or with my suggested implementation methods?

Finally I ask to you if you've heard the story of some ancient chinese prison guard who lost some prisoners in transit and realising that being late to recapture the prisoners, arriving with some missing and leading a coup were all punished the same decided to free the rest of the prisoners and lead a coup? There can be paralels drawn from that story to this.