Buff handheld flamethrowers

[worph]

Testing the new experimental version I thought to give some less used weapons a go.
The shotgun buff is amazing, although I did always use it even before that.

That being said I now also build and used a handheld flamethrower for the first time and howdie partner let me tell you: this guy stinks.
I really do not understand what the intended use for it is at all.
The shotgun is better in almost every scenario, quite contrary to what common sense would tell you. At least I think a flamethrower should always be more scary than a shotgun in 99% of cases, except maybe the most closed quarters.

Shotgun deals more damage consistently.
Shotgun is much more forgiving when aiming. (flamethrower needs to be pointed at the ground and even then is not always damaging the way you expect)
Shotgun has better range.
Shotgun does not slow you down anymore.
Shotgun is much earlier in the research tree.

The only argument for the flamethrower is that they are SLIGHTLY better at killing Worms, but even that is not true because a shotgun is better at dealing with everything else too at the same time, the flames just deal more damage to worms in direct comparison it seemed.
Also the ammo is cheaper, but then again the flamethrower EATS through ammo like nobodies business.

Basically I wish you would extend some of the gratitude given to the shotgun also to the flamethrower.
And if the slowdown mechanic was to stick around, the damage and AOE potential should really outweigh the clunkyness.

Cheers.

[Tertius]

Until 2.0, the shotgun appeared to me as if I was shooting with blanks when trying to fight biters and nests. I was always very soon overrun and killed. The only visible damage I was ever able to deal was to my factory buildings when I accidentally hit Spacebar while working on my factory.
But with the flamethrower, I was actually able to kill stuff, although the range was a bit low. That weapon is ok, I use it as stopgap before I'm able to craft rockets.
Didn't try the 2.1 shotgun yet.

[Hurkyl]

My experiences using it in 2.0 is that flamethrower works well to sweep enemies chasing after you, including big biters (I dunno about behemoth). In games where I was attacking nests on foot with the rocket launcher, my usual flow was to snipe a spawner with the launcher then switch to the flamethrower to quickly sweep the retaliatory attack. Especially if I was low on physical damage upgrades so gun turret backup would struggle with the big ones.

The range feels too sort for substantial offensive use.

I haven't used the shotgun for much besides knocking down spawners in the early game so I can't comment on how it compares.

[worph]

Maybe someone who actually used both of the weapons (I dare you!) can also respond to this suggestion.
The other responses are welcome too, of course.

[dewred]

The shotgun is now the preferred method of dealing with small nests, but that in no way makes the flamethrower useless.

For taking out large swarm of biters the flamethrower is still number 1. And the best way to use it is literally to hose the entire area with flames to catch all the biters on fire. Or drop fire behind you as the biters chase.

The one thing the flamethrower feels actually bad at is killing spawners. And that's mainly due to the high fire resist combined with the scaling health.

[worph]

The one thing the flamethrower feels actually bad at is killing spawners. And that's mainly due to the high fire resist combined with the scaling health.

Yes, but Paradoxically, that's what I feel they should be the most useful at, especially given their cumbersomeness otherwise (slow, short range, high ammo usage).
Let me burn those spawner down with ease, especially on the first two evolution stages.

[dewred]

The flamethrower is not shorter range. It has the same range, 15, as shotguns and pistols. (The tank flamethrower IS short range.) It is slightly harder to use due to the way the fire arcs, but that's honestly a skill issue.

It's ammo usage is not much faster than the fully upgraded combat shotgun either. I suppose the resource cost is higher, but so is the damage output. And yes, the AoE damage is way higher... if you are fighting enough biters for it to matter. If I try to conserve ammo, I can kill spawners with a shotgun and biters with a flamethrower, and use less flamethrower ammo than shells.

Not sure if I want the shooting slowdown to go away. A skilled player with exoskeletons can outrun and kite any enemy, and without the slowdown the only way to die is if you run into spit.

I disagree with most of your arguments, right now the flamethrower and shotgun feel like they have a really good synergy. But I am in favor of nests getting reduced fire resists. Maybe down to 50% or 40% if wube is generous. This should be a pure buff to the flamethrower.

[worph]

I understand where you are coming from. Generally changing weapons mid fight is not an issue for me, but in factorio it is beyond clunky. I hate swapping weapons mid fight, so I will argue from a POV of using a single weapon, mostly. I understand that this might not reflect other people, or even a lot of peoples play style.

Also I was not trying to make an argument for anything very particular. I just described my observations and expectations. It may be true that both have the same range, but it certainly does not feel that way to me in practical terms. This is probably because there is too much latency between shooting and seeing where the projectile actually lands. That visual feedback is much more immediate with shotguns. This messed my whole combat rythm up and I died a lot more compared to holding a shotgun.

I would be totally fine with just keeping the weapon the way it is overall. I just used it for the first time and it felt very underwhelming, especially compared to the new shotgun. At the point when I have a bunch of exoskeletons, I would never use anything other than artillery, tanks and defended walls. This weapon is clearly early game to me.

But as you said, likely the best solution would be to reduce fire resistances on spawners, especially on lower evolution levels and leave it at that.

[worph]

Not directly related, but I also just used the tanks flamethrower a little bit, and that was also a weird and unexpected experience.
The weirdest think to me was how different it was to the handheld version (which I feel is a huge mistake).
But especially how it does "direct" damage but you can still shoot over enemies.
I think the tank version, if it should continue to do "direct" damage, should also damage enemies in the path of the "projectiles".

And at the same time it felt better and worse to use than the handheld version simultaneously.
The damage felt clearly better (I am intentionally not looking at the weapons numbers here).
But aiming was somehow even worse. With the handheld version at least you understand quite quickly that you put down AOE flames on the ground. With the tank version I felt like using a waterhose while the entire garden is on fire. Too much oomph for a single biter but not enough when they are coming from all sides at the same time.

Overall it just felt very inconsistent, especially when you take the flamethrower turret into the equation.

[Hurkyl]

I agree it's weird how different the tank flamethrower is.

I assumed that it was tuned that way so you couldn't just do a loop around a nest to set everything on fire and drive away to let the damage-over-time tick away. If that's actually the reason, it should probably be revisited since spawners got a massive HP buff with 2.0.

I felt like it wasn't bad at clearing masses -- but rather than trying to fire in all directions I would let biters group up chasing me then wipe out crowds at once. It does feel super weird that you have to lead the group to do damage and can't just fire through the crowd. Spitters would group up too, but at an inconvenient range and I do take more damage than I'd like finishing off a large group of those.

[dewred]

I just realized with some testing that flamethrowers perform significantly better if you spread out the flames over a nest. Apparently nests can take multiple DoT hits if fire is on multiple tiles surrounding the nest. Fire on a single spot barely does enough to counter regen. Even for the tank flamethrower, wiggling the mouse over the nest causes it to do significantly more damage.

I assumed that it was tuned that way so you couldn't just do a loop around a nest to set everything on fire and drive away to let the damage-over-time tick away.

The tank flamethrower has fine DPS, even without lingering fire, but the low range means it will never be desirable over the main cannon for nest killing.

I think every player agrees the tank flamer being so different is weird.

[Hurkyl]

I assumed that it was tuned that way so you couldn't just do a loop around a nest to set everything on fire and drive away to let the damage-over-time tick away.

The tank flamethrower has fine DPS, even without lingering fire, but the low range means it will never be desirable over the main cannon for nest killing.

I don't agree; I don't think the range of the tank weaponry is quite that important.

I've been playing 100x science cost games which has me doing a lot of harder "tank versus large nest" battles. The usual battle is doing endless loops around the base taking potshots at nearby spawners (and hopefully the damaged ones) at the cannon's max firing rate, taking breaks as needed to clear up biter/spawner swarms as they get large enough to threaten your safety in making loops. (first pass or two spams poison capsules to clear out the worms)

There isn't a particular need stay at max range with this; what matters more are what driving lanes are open and where the masses of spitters are building up and where acid covers the ground. Taking lines closer to the base, in fact, are preferable since it ensures the nest is always in firing range even if you have to swing outwards to avoid the obstacles, and it helps you line up piercing shots when you can manage them (e.g. last hitting a spawner or if you're shooting worms).


If the tank flamethrower did set things on fire -- assuming the lingering flames do enough damage over time -- my battle strategy would be to make a single loop torching the entire perimeter of the base, drive away while fire does its thing, and repeating to refresh the flames until the nest is small enough a more direct assault is easier. I expect this would be much safer and lower intensity than using the main cannon, and expect to be able to take out larger nests, especially with less optimal equipment (e.g. lower quality exoskeletons or before rocket fuel).

[dewred]

You can already try that strategy with the handheld flamer, power armor, and 2-3 exos. It takes a good amount of skill and it is really easy to die. The huge advantage of the tank is being both fast and survivable. Circling a nest with a long range cannon is just easier and safer all around, the range gives you the option to fight close or far.