Have rail signals detect locomotive and wagon ghosts

[The-Zee-System]

TL;DR

Have rail signals and chain signals turn to red when there is a ghost of a locomotive or wagon.

What?

Have it so when placing down ghosts of locomotives, they trigger the signals so trains are not built in front of or in the middle of another train going by.

Why?

Several times when putting down blueprints with trains in them, sometimes the stops are built first before the locomotive is, and then another locomotive comes to the stop before the other locomotive is built, and sometimes they merge into each other, or just sit there, it would be a lot better if you as placing a locomotive it would make that part of the rail not accessible so they don't do weird things to each other, or having another locomotive crash into another because it was just placed right before the other one comes into the intersection.

[mmmPI]

Instead of writing dozens of lines for several minutes, give us an

an ?

[robot256]

(they didn't delete the whole template post. Thanks for using the template!)

This is an interesting idea, but I think it's not very important gameplay wise. Right now, you can avoid having other trains interfere with your blueprint train construction by building a special construction track. If the ghosts block other trains on a busy track, you would still want to use a construction track to avoid delays. It's just a question of which behavior gives better feedback to the player thay they should not build blueprints on a busy track.

[thedoh]

BIG +1 to this idea, OP.

[mmmPI]

(they didn't delete the whole template post. Thanks for using the template!)

ah right duuuuuh sorry

This is an interesting idea, but I think it's not very important gameplay wise. Right now, you can avoid having other trains interfere with your blueprint train construction by building a special construction track. If the ghosts block other trains on a busy track, you would still want to use a construction track to avoid delays. It's just a question of which behavior gives better feedback to the player thay they should not build blueprints on a busy track.

I was going to say that, but i think it's slightly different the situation described, it's not just when you build "trains" but rather "outpost with also a trains on them", in such case the robots can create the rails and the stations, before the ghost train, and it can happen that other trains reaches that new station, but in doing so they can prevent the ghosts train to be properly built, or that create some weird interactions.

The "build your new trains on a dedicated track" works, or " remove a single rail" to make sure the station isn't used while it's not ready, but it's a bit of a "workaround", if the idea from you was just to try and add both the outpost and the trains that goes with it in a single BP.

[AntiElitz]

Agree with op. Trains going over ghost that are currently being build make everything super whacky

[robot256]

I was going to say that, but i think it's slightly different the situation described, it's not just when you build "trains" but rather "outpost with also a trains on them", in such case the robots can create the rails and the stations, before the ghost train, and it can happen that other trains reaches that new station, but in doing so they can prevent the ghosts train to be properly built, or that create some weird interactions.

I don't disagree with you. While personally I probably would not bother combining outposts with trains (with generic schedules so the outpost gets overrun by other trains before the ghost trains are built), it's a much more intuitive user experience to have ghosts block other trains. Worst case scenario, player wonders "why are my trains stuck" and finds unbuildable ghosts on the track they can easily deal with. Versus now where you could even have the front half of a train built, and another train overlapping the ghosts in the rear.

[mmmPI]

I don't disagree with you. While personally I probably would not bother combining outposts with trains (with generic schedules so the outpost gets overrun by other trains before the ghost trains are built)

Well yeah that's on me, i tried a made-up example where i thought it would be obvious what i mean but it may be a bad example for what players who actually encountered the problem did.

it's a much more intuitive user experience to have ghosts block other trains. Worst case scenario, player wonders "why are my trains stuck" and finds unbuildable ghosts on the track they can easily deal with. Versus now where you could even have the front half of a train built, and another train overlapping the ghosts in the rear.

I think the idea that an active train shouldn't have interaction that result in a ghost train being partially built and considered finished is a +1 with me.

but for some reason the "have rail signals detect locomotive and wagon ghosts" seems to me a tiny difference which makes me wonder if there are not weird edge cases that can arise , like hidden in the transition from the idea to the implementation. I feel there is something i'm missing still x)

[The-Zee-System]

Instead of writing dozens of lines for several minutes, give us an

an ?

fixed it, for some fucking reason my phone auto corrected to that weird shit.

[robot256]

but for some reason the "have rail signals detect locomotive and wagon ghosts" seems to me a tiny difference which makes me wonder if there are not weird edge cases that can arise , like hidden in the transition from the idea to the implementation. I feel there is something i'm missing still x)

I think you're overthinking it, and it's the only way to affect the behavior if existing trains without introducing tons of new edge cases. The ghost train would behave just like an out-of-fuel train blocking the tracks, and would leave when it is built and fueled.

If it is built on a rail block already partly/fully occupied by a train, that train could still drive through the ghosts, but if the track and signals are placed in the same blueprint then that will be impossible.

[mmmPI]

I think you're overthinking it

most likely x), i was thinking stuff like if the bots don't build the signals , then a ghosts train positionned on a "side lane" / newly added blueprint on a branch, would risk blocking trains that woulnd't have passed through it

and another thing that made me overthink is the order in which the bots will build the new rails on which there is a ghost train , it's beyond me to picture all the edges cases, like if the rail is changing from one way to two way due to a delayed signals, and it's on a junction and there are 2 ghosts wagons but not attached .... 100 % overthinking it x)

[GlassBricks]

This also might be more relevant in 2.0+, after the introduction of train auto-start. Right now if you bp 2 trains that might hit the same rail block, the behavior is unpredictable/broken sometimes depending on the order bots place the trains and rails

[robot256]

This also might be more relevant in 2.0+, after the introduction of train auto-start. Right now if you bp 2 trains that might hit the same rail block, the behavior is unpredictable/broken sometimes depending on the order bots place the trains and rails

This scenario and mmmPI's make ot pretty clear that train autostart makes including them in larger blueprints is problematic no matter what the signaling system does with ghosts.

The autostart feature is clearly intended around the playstyle of placing full train blueprints on existing track. They didn't really account for cases where the player places individual rolling stock ghosts, or where the track and signals are being built at the same time as the train.

[The-Zee-System]

This also might be more relevant in 2.0+, after the introduction of train auto-start. Right now if you bp 2 trains that might hit the same rail block, the behavior is unpredictable/broken sometimes depending on the order bots place the trains and rails

Have you also had sometimes random cargo wagons somewhere and random half built locomotives just going around your base and then you spending 5 minutes trying to figure out where it broke?

This often the case for me as robots don't place them all at once and sometimes they attach to OTHER locomotives that come by and then its finding that one somewhere before it deadlocks everything.

[mmmPI]

Game dev sounds like a hard job x) This sound particularly difficult to test following the process that was revealed in a few videos about how factorio is developped, because it's not just what happens "immediatly" that need be tested, but different resolution of builds that can be delayed for a while. Maybe i'm completly wrong though.

In my recent game, because i was afraid of something going wrong exactly like a half built train moving around i used "empty parralel sideway stacked lane", to paste my full trains.

Maybe a train "shouldn't depart automatically, if the ghost has been altered would reduce the bad outcomes, but it won't help to "secure" the idea that when you paste a blueprint with a train on it that has auto start, you expect it to resolve in a way that the blueprint gets built, and the train as pasted depart afterward. So it's more a fire and forget where you can build (fast) in the meantime, instead of looking at your drone to make sure the process goes well, or risk discovering it didn't in unpleasant way.