Bio Chambers -> Fulgoran recipes

[ZCaliber]

TL;DR

I think bio Chambers should be able to create holmium solution, and possibly be considered to be able to make Electrolyte.

What?

Currently, Bio chambers do not have the option to create holmium solution. I believe that should be changed. As for electrolyte, it might be a candidate to consider as well, for at least the reason that is has what plants crave.

Why?

There is very little reason to set-up bio chambers on Fulgora, since that planet already provides all the petrochemical fluids one could possibly need. On Vulcanous one could set them up bio chambers to assist with the relative issue with insufficient petrochemical fluids and rocket fuel supply. Nauvis has much the same use. Aquilo has little use for bio chambers as well, but that is beyond the scope of this suggestion. Given the importance of Holmium fluid, and the relative difficulty of inter-planet bioflux logistics, I think it would add more incentives to setting up bio chambers on a planet that has absolutely no reason to have them.



I have no doubt that this may have been suggested in the past, or it simply gets lost in the shuffle. But it is a change I truly hope gets considered as someone who enjoys the challenge and audacity of setting up bio chambers on planets that are not Gleba.

[macdjord]

Biochambers do have some utility on Fulgora; they have twice the base speed of chemical plants, which is a valuable space-saver on the constrained islands of Fulgora, and while heavy oil is literally infinite and effectively free, the inherent productivity bonus reduces the required amount of water, which unlike on Nauvis isn't free there. Also, they don't cost any electricity, so you can module them up the wazoo without worrying about not having enough accumulators to last the day.

That said, compared to EM plants or foundries, biochambers do have very limited use on other planets, and not just on Fulgora, especially given that, unlike the other planet-specific production buildings, using it requires setting up an ongoing supply chain of bioflux to fuel it. IMO, Wube should have given a couple more non-Gleba-specific recipes to it. Maybe give it, rather than the cryoplant, the plastic and/or battery recipes?

(Then again, it's possible that the need for an ongoing supply chain is why they didn't give it any of the more game-changing recipes. As it is, even an endgame megabase can skip using them without losing out on too much in potential savings. And if you do use them, it'll probably be on Nauvis, which already needs a bioflux supply chain for biter egg production.)

As for giving it the holmium solution recipe, there are a couple potential issues I can see. First, while it would make biochambers invaluable on Fulgora, it wouldn't do anything for them on Vulcanus or Aquillo. Second, since holmium is usually the bottleneck for a Fulgora base, and all holmium ore goes through the holmium solution recipe, it would be tough to balance properly.

[JackTheSpades]

Biochambers do have some utility on Fulgora; they have twice the base speed of chemical plants, which is a valuable space-saver on the constrained islands of Fulgora, and while heavy oil is literally infinite and effectively free, the inherent productivity bonus reduces the required amount of water, which unlike on Nauvis isn't free there. Also, they don't cost any electricity, so you can module them up the wazoo without worrying about not having enough accumulators to last the day.

I dunno if those criticisms really hold up.

• Space constraint is real but if you build on a "continent" you really should have more than enough space until you unlock the Foundations.
• Water consumption also isn't really a problem since you get ice as a byproduct of recycling anyway. So you will always have 5 times as much ice as you have holmium ore. The Holmium solution recipe needs 2 holmium ore and half an ice cube, leaving you with 9.5 ice = 190 water (without productivity modules).
• Electricity is also free and infinite on Fulgora, only requiring more space to "store" which is only a problem until you have Foundations after which you can just run power lines between islands at very little cost for real infinite power.

I have a 100k spm science production on Fulgora without using Bio Chambers, meanwhile I do use them on Vulcanus to reduce coal consumption.

I love the idea of making Holmium Solution in Bio Chambers because it adds a real usage for interplanetary logistics and the max +150% you can get compared to the Chem Plants max +75% would be an insane boost to Fulgora science which, in my experience, required one of the largest bases to reach the 100k science per minute. Most of which is just dealing with all the byproducts of scrap recycling. So getting twice as much Holmium Solution would be an insanely appreciated boost.

Can't say I agree with the Electrolyte though, since you already got the EM Plant for that one.

[Hurkyl]

There is a part of the game where you aren't post-scarcity, y'know.

Also, it's worth noting that as you max out your productivity bonuses, you have to start crafting batteries to keep up with your science production, and that's another big water guzzler if you don't drop sulfur from orbit.

(especially if you've been diligently stockpiling unused holmium to keep a Fulgora factory going when not making science and em plants, but did not keep a battery warehouse to match)

[JackTheSpades]

There is a part of the game where you aren't post-scarcity, y'know.

Also, it's worth noting that as you max out your productivity bonuses, you have to start crafting batteries to keep up with your science production, and that's another big water guzzler if you don't drop sulfur from orbit.

Then, if you are in this "non-post scarcity" state (aka just scarcity) just don't use Biochambers for Holmium Solution?
Or drop Sulfur and Ice from space like you suggested.

None of that sounds like a real reason why the option to use Biochambers for Holmium Solution shouldn't exist.

With the exception of Gleba, Biochambers are disappointingly useless for anything other than oil cracking and rocket fuel. Neither of which is a real problem for Fulgora or Aquilo.
And given how much effort you have to put in to even use them (Importing Bioflux from Gleba and handling Spoilage) it's just a shame that there aren't any real uses for them.

(Nauvis is the only planet that has native Nutrient production through Biter Eggs but those too require Bioflux from Gleba to stay alive so it's the same still).

[macdjord]

• Water consumption also isn't really a problem since you get ice as a byproduct of recycling anyway. So you will always have 5 times as much ice as you have holmium ore. The Holmium solution recipe needs 2 holmium ore and half an ice cube, leaving you with 9.5 ice = 190 water (without productivity modules).

Long term, for just producing science, that's true, but when I'm trying to expand my base, or producing EM plants or modules for export, water shortages have been a frequent problem for me. I don't generally use biochambers, but that's because I usually don't go to Gleba until I've got Vulcanus and Fulgora pretty much set up.

• Electricity is also free and infinite on Fulgora, only requiring more space to "store" which is only a problem until you have Foundations after which you can just run power lines between islands at very little cost for real infinite power.

My experience has always been that I never have trouble producing enough power, even just using lightning rods instead of collectors, but building enough accumulators to store it all is a perpetual problem.


Another issue to consider is thematics: oil (and oil products like solid and rocket fuel) are organic, so it makes sense that biochambers are able to produce them. Holmium solution, on the other hand, is by all appearances a completely non-organic substance produced from non-organic inputs, so it would be wildly out of theme for biochambers to be able to do it. (That's why I prefer the idea of giving them the plastic recipe, sulphur, and maybe sulphuric acid or battery recipes. Plastic is clearly organic, and sulphur chemistry it at least feels plausible to use organic and biological processes for.)

[JackTheSpades]

• Water consumption also isn't really a problem since you get ice as a byproduct of recycling anyway. So you will always have 5 times as much ice as you have holmium ore. The Holmium solution recipe needs 2 holmium ore and half an ice cube, leaving you with 9.5 ice = 190 water (without productivity modules).

Long term, for just producing science, that's true, but when I'm trying to expand my base, or producing EM plants or modules for export, water shortages have been a frequent problem for me. I don't generally use biochambers, but that's because I usually don't go to Gleba until I've got Vulcanus and Fulgora pretty much set up.

Maybe we aren't thinking of the same thing?
My understanding is that Holmium Solution would be optional to craft in Bio Chambers, not mandatory. You could still just use the Chemplant as before.
The whole idea is to use it in late game scenarios where you have everything unlocked and interplanetary supply routes established to keep them fed.

In my playthrough, I went to Fulgora first, so I made my Holmium Plates in an Assembler and after finishing Vulcanus, I replaced them with Foundries for better rates. Is there any reason this shouldn't be available as an option with Bio Chambers and Holmium Solution as well?

Another issue to consider is thematics: oil (and oil products like solid and rocket fuel) are organic, so it makes sense that biochambers are able to produce them. Holmium solution, on the other hand, is by all appearances a completely non-organic substance produced from non-organic inputs, so it would be wildly out of theme for biochambers to be able to do it. (That's why I prefer the idea of giving them the plastic recipe, sulphur, and maybe sulphuric acid or battery recipes. Plastic is clearly organic, and sulphur chemistry it at least feels plausible to use organic and biological processes for.)

First, factorio has always sacrificed realism for better gameplay mechanic because people would rather play a fun game than a realistic one. There are countless examples but just take the planets being 15,000 km apart as one. Why can one rocket deliver 1000 iron plates but only 100 magazines. Or how to belts work in zero gravity? Mods like Space Exploration forced you to make custom space belts which is more so tedious than "immersive".

Second, I think the "theme" of Biochambers only crafting organic things is really keeping it from being useful.
Doing a courtesy google search, apparently anything with carbon is considered organic. Hency why oil, coal and plastic technically apply.
So I concede the point that it applies to the theme of only crafting organics. But considering that most of factorio outside of Gleba is using inorganic materials it just feels like a shame that it can only be used for oil cracking and rocket fuel.

I would be perfectly happy to also have things like Sulfur, Sulfuric Acid and maybe Ice-Meling available to handle water shortages. These aren't mutually exclusive options. Thought the first two are already available in the Cryogenic Plant with 8 productivity module slots (as are batteries) but I'm not sure what ties them thematically to "cryogenics" any more than holmium not being "organic".