Friday Facts #442 - Flip, Flow, and Fresh Paint

[Nine_Theta]

Loving the changes so far! Especially the long awaited quality trains.
I'm a bit sad about the casino being shutdown, but it's understandable. I just wish there was something that replaced it, because just busting the illegal gambling operation doesn't resolve the reason people used in the first place.

On a semi-related note: would it be possible to have higher quality holmium ore also output more holmium solution when processed?

[eloepp]

And Factorio is a non competitive, mostly single player game, and partially a sandbox.

I don't really get this argument. you guys are right though. it doesn't matter. it's not competitive...we're not competing... just play how you want. play in sandbox. play with mods. use /c.

also (not necessarily directed at you just in general), to people making the argument "you can keep playing how you want but let me play how I want". Man, I've seen this argument in other games (like WoW) for yearrrs. And I've never agreed with it. The fact of the matter is, people will inevitably gravitate towards the path of least resistance, whether that leads to good/interesting gameplay or not. This is just true in life as well... in general. People do things that work against them or do not benefit them as much in the long run constantly because something else is easier at the time. Also, as I said in my previous comment, the casual masses will always want things to be easier. That is all to say, if Wube just developes by that philosophie there would be many OP things in the game that everybody would end up using and the game probably wouldn't be as good.

anyway, that's not even to say Space Casino should be removed. I am not arguing that. I simply do not like this argument "you play your way but let me play how I want". I never have. It's better, in my opinion, to actually argue the merits of Space Casino, or the shortcomings of the alternative.

On the asteroid reprocessing quality change specifically, Devs, please reconsider. In this topic alone, despite some vocal advocates, the count is roughly 3 to 1 against removing it.

yes, well, that makes sense because something is being at least partially removed that people currently depend on. the backlash is expected and so are the emotional responses.

[yngndrw]

The real issue is that the venn diagram of those that use/like casinos and those that dislike quality is nearly a circle.

This isn't true, I like casinos and I like quality. To me, quality is an end game mechanism and should be deployable at ludicrous scale.

The cat is out of the bag now, it's Pandora's box.

It no longer matters what the original intention was, people are now used to it and removing it is going to annoy a lot of people. People like large numbers, it's a game it's meant to be fun. Having to grind even more in order to megabase will just stop people from playing early - UPS is already a serious limit to megabasing.

[Tertius]

Developers listening too much to players is a huge problem, in my opinion, in the industry now adays, because the loudest people get their way, and all games will bend to these groups.

It's important developers listen to their players, otherwise it could happen they disconnect from (part of) the player community and these players lose interest in the game. It happened for me for some game once - I stopped playing that.

However, developers have to see the whole game and the player community as a whole and do what's best for their vision of the game and the community in general. That's not always matching the views of single players, also not necessarily of the loudest players, and if it happens your're one of the few unlucky players whose vision of gameplay doesn't match the vision of the developers for their game, you're frustrated. But developers have a view beyond that of single players and are able to see the whole thing. You as player have to carefully investigate any game to see if the vision of the game matches your own vision. It's the same as with a dead horse: if you realize you're riding a dead horse, dismount. It's impossible to revive a dead horse, no matter how loud you complain.

To toughen yourself up, you should try playing an MMO at least once. After a balance update, the previous and precious behavior is gone. It never existed. It cannot be modded back in. Get used to it. All complaints are in vain. It's cruel, but it's true. Leave that behind and focus on the new gameplay. Nerfing one thing means buffing everything else, so start using what has been buffed.

As far as I see, Wube definitely isn't disconnected from the players. I guess a major part is multiplayer: as long as space casino exists, players in multiplayer are forced to use space casino if the loudest player requires it, instead of building one of multiple equally viable upcycling strategies. This isn't encouraging variety.

A valid criticism about this is just why after 1.5 years? If it's that severe, it could have been removed a year ago. Now, after 1.5 years, it cannot be that severe to begin with.

[quineotio]

The fact of the matter is, people will inevitably gravitate towards the path of least resistance, whether that leads to good/interesting gameplay or not.

The difference in WoW is that it effects other people, as it's a multiplayer game.

I hate this elitist attitude. "Sorry guys, if you aren't as good as we are and can't do things the "correct" way, we are going to use our power to stop you".

All because Kovarex is upset over people not liking quality.

[yngndrw]

As far as I see, Wube definitely isn't disconnected from the players. I guess a major part is multiplayer: as long as space casino exists, players in multiplayer are forced to use space casino if the loudest player requires it, instead of building one of multiple equally viable upcycling strategies. This isn't encouraging variety.

Nobody is forcing players to go out of their way to build them, nobody has a gun to their head. This isn't competitive multiplayer.

Lots of people avoid using the item duplication glitch because they have a choice not to. Nobody forces them to use that either.

[Hurkyl]

A valid criticism about this is just why after 1.5 years? If it's that severe, it could have been removed a year ago. Now, after 1.5 years, it cannot be that severe to begin with.

I would assume they were deferring non-urgent breaking changes for the next minor revision.

And my recollection (but this is just the corner of the 'community' I've observed) is that people were first just talking about it as an interesting curiosity, and it took a fair amount of time before people got enough experience with it to say it's probably overpowered, and to see that it would polarize people to the point where feel they can't and/or won't imagine doing quality any other way.

[yngndrw]

And my recollection (but this is just the corner of the 'community' I've observed) is that people were first just talking about it as an interesting curiosity, and it took a fair amount of time before people got enough experience with it to say it's probably overpowered, and to see that it would polarize people to the point where feel they can't and/or won't imagine doing quality any other way.

This isn't about it being the only way, it's about not removing the mechanism which prevents it from becoming tedious.

One of the issues, IMO, of Factorio 1.* was that everything had to be huge. Sure you can make a factory that's physically massive, but it's tedious. It's tedious to get the materials, it's tedious to landfill, it's tedious to place down even with blueprints and an army of Spidertron builders, it's tedious to modify when you make a mistake and it's tedious to even walk across the factory.

Space Age did something great, the factories became physically far smaller while production increased. The challenge was still there, as the core recipes are all there. You just didn't need to stamp out millions of units of the same thing. (The issue still exists in some cases, for example to scale Promethium ships - But most of the issues have been resolved.) This makes it fun.

Removing the space casino feature makes the quality feature tedious, and tedious is not fun.

[Tertius]

Space Age did something great, the factories became physically far smaller while production increased. The challenge was still there, as the core recipes are all there. You just didn't need to stamp out millions of units of the same thing. (The issue still exists in some cases, for example to scale Promethium ships - But most of the issues have been resolved.) This makes it fun.

Removing the space casino feature makes the quality feature tedious, and tedious is not fun.

You're contradicting yourself, because quality production is just tedious for vast amounts of quality items such as for continuously crafting science packs. For low volume production such as a mall, every upcycling approach will work, and it's just one building and not duplicated over and over again, so it's not tedious.

But space casino is being duplicated over and over again to get a high output volume, in contrast to regular production with legendary production machines. This is because quality upgrading and speed modules are mutually exclusive. You have to duplicate and multiply any factory containing quality modules. This is no less tedious than any other upcycling means.

The problem is a conceptual one. A deliberate design decision since 2.0. The game is made so quality and speed are mutually exclusive. But without speed, you have to duplicate over and over, no matter the actual production approach (asteroid reprocessing or item upcycling). So if there is a really good solution for the space casino dilemma, it would perhaps include speed boost for quality science pack production but not for general mall production. I have no idea how to accomplish that, though.

[Eulenberg]

It is more that you people try to downplay space casinos being OP. We wouldn't have that much meltdown by their removal if it weren't OP. And as Ive said if someone wants to have that not OP solution they can mod it in back. But at that point why not just mod in legendary everything rather than pretneding that you engage with mechanic.

Only that Space Casinos are not OP at all, if you consider that only the first 2 science packs are done with it on a larger scale base, the other science packs lack a method that can be scaled to the same level as common science, without the need to buy a new CPU and RAM.
Its true it makes bootstrapping a majority of base quality buildables trivial but so does ore washing with the only diffrence beeing you need 100x more buildings, but you need so little buildables anyways even for the largest bases that you can use ore washing on nauvis and never depleate a single patch to make all buildables for a 10M eSPM base. If we dont get any changes its clear to me devs dont play with quality and they didnt playtest there own game in this aspect of the game at all.

The only thing that is impacted by removing the casinos is quality science, not the buildables at all, since only need a very little trace amount of quality compared to science. Getting Legendary Quality buildables is as easy as it is before, only more boring, less engaging and with less of a logistical challenge than before, but with a longer grind tied to it
However Quality science is removed from the game, and that is the saddest thing about this.

It is funny when you people mention that they are not OP and then say that they are OP yourself. Quality science is not removed. The boring and OP solution to it is removed. Your entire argument comes as most of those comes that we should simplyfy game even more casue then it will be more fun. So assembler should just get ore in and throw a lot of science cause it will be even more UPS and who needs balance in single player game /s. As Ive said you can mod that in and pretend that you put effort in in getting something.

Quality science is gone. Not a single science can be made now with quality, efficiently. it will require 100x the assembling machines and inserter to produce a fraction of the eSPM compared to common. The system needs a overhaul, not remove the only way to make it borderline viable.
If we would consequently follow the arguments of people who think quality casinos are too op and want it removed, we have to remove inverters, chests, belts and miner because they remove the fun in handmineing, handcrafting, handfeeding, and inventory management. Casinos make quality borderline viable, not more or less. For buildables it does not matter in the first place since you can buffer them, and there are even easier ways than casinos to get more than enough you need for all buildables.

Im not gonna argue with emotional argument cause there is not logic there. Just mod it back in and pretend that you have skill, but at that point I would mod more fun in with everything legendary mod and stop pretending that it isnt OP

Can you or some other people, that want casinos to be removed tell me, please were the world does piping products that didnt get upgraded from the recycler back to the assembler input involve any form of skill? people who think it casinos are op, and want them to be remove always bring this "get good" argument, when the only only way to get quality now is less skilful, imo, than building a giant space factory, defending it, and distribute its products to different planets.

I have played and beaten most of the considered hard overhauls of this game: pre and post AL pyanodons, B&A, Ultracube, K2SE, you name it and recently finished a K2SO run with some well supported planet additions. I can say, upcycling and casinos both require little to no skill, both are solved with a two splitters per quality tier, one that routes back anything that is not upgraded, and the 2nd that merges it into the resupply with priority, the big difference is that upcycling is very repetitive and grindy, casions are a one time project that you build and get the rewards, you can move on to improve your factory. Upcycling is after you build it once, extremely tedious and boring, because there is no new "challenge or skill" needed only the in and outputs change. recyclers that cant properly stack on belts on there own (yes chests and -15 combinator solve this), dont make this any better.

If i had to make a bold prediction people like you never made it past blue science, watch youtube/twitch and here come to repeat what people said in streams/videos. Seeking praise for a pseudo elitist take on some aspect of the game.
The main issue is that quality is not backed into the engine, or the engine is not made with quality in mind, however you want to see it, its a mod so there are limitations and gameplay flaws to it, casinos partly fixed some of these issues, by letting you have a consistent and reliable way to source basic resources in quality, not all there were some items that still had to be upcycled or washed.
For me that build a SA base with all legendary items, and a decent eSPM, it feelt like a good mix, some things still were still constrained, others could be solved, with casinos now gone we have have to upcycle everything over and over, with the same steat and concept behind all of these builds, even the "air" we need to breath.


The arguments that people like you bring, clearly show to me who actually played the game and tried make quality work, that in fact you the ones that never have engaged with the mechanic in the first place.

[yngndrw]

Space Age did something great, the factories became physically far smaller while production increased. The challenge was still there, as the core recipes are all there. You just didn't need to stamp out millions of units of the same thing. (The issue still exists in some cases, for example to scale Promethium ships - But most of the issues have been resolved.) This makes it fun.

Removing the space casino feature makes the quality feature tedious, and tedious is not fun.

You're contradicting yourself, because quality production is just tedious for vast amounts of quality items such as for continuously crafting science packs. For low volume production such as a mall, every upcycling approach will work, and it's just one building and not duplicated over and over again, so it's not tedious.

But space casino is being duplicated over and over again to get a high output volume, in contrast to regular production with legendary production machines. This is because quality upgrading and speed modules are mutually exclusive. You have to duplicate and multiply any factory containing quality modules. This is no less tedious than any other upcycling means.

The problem is a conceptual one. A deliberate design decision since 2.0. The game is made so quality and speed are mutually exclusive. But without speed, you have to duplicate over and over, no matter the actual production approach (asteroid reprocessing or item upcycling). So if there is a really good solution for the space casino dilemma, it would perhaps include speed boost for quality science pack production but not for general mall production. I have no idea how to accomplish that, though.

You're missing the point I'm trying to make.

Sure building a space casino requires some amount of duplication, but a full space casino setup is still far smaller and more manageable than a traditional large factory.

But once you do that, once you have a steady stream of legendary versions of the core resources and modules - You're now into the endgame.

Everything changes, the ratios, how you build stuff. Even the core challenge changes, it's no longer about recipes as it now becomes a logistical challenge - How can I get enough belts, inserters and beacons around my legendary EM plant.

Your factories get rebuilt for massive production, but the physical size remains the same or in some cases reduce. You get to replay the game with massive numbers, with a logistical challenge that isn't tedious. That is what space casinos give you - The small amount of duplication in space unlocks a whole new approach on the surfaces. There are still some tedious parts (Legendary biter eggs!), but it's much more manageable once you have a constant stream of legendary core materials.

So I put forward the argument that space casinos create an entire game's worth of additional fun - Space casinos are the backbone of the endgame.

[Eulenberg]

Space Age did something great, the factories became physically far smaller while production increased. The challenge was still there, as the core recipes are all there. You just didn't need to stamp out millions of units of the same thing. (The issue still exists in some cases, for example to scale Promethium ships - But most of the issues have been resolved.) This makes it fun.

Removing the space casino feature makes the quality feature tedious, and tedious is not fun.

You're contradicting yourself, because quality production is just tedious for vast amounts of quality items such as for continuously crafting science packs. For low volume production such as a mall, every upcycling approach will work, and it's just one building and not duplicated over and over again, so it's not tedious.

But space casino is being duplicated over and over again to get a high output volume, in contrast to regular production with legendary production machines. This is because quality upgrading and speed modules are mutually exclusive. You have to duplicate and multiply any factory containing quality modules. This is no less tedious than any other upcycling means.

The problem is a conceptual one. A deliberate design decision since 2.0. The game is made so quality and speed are mutually exclusive. But without speed, you have to duplicate over and over, no matter the actual production approach (asteroid reprocessing or item upcycling). So if there is a really good solution for the space casino dilemma, it would perhaps include speed boost for quality science pack production but not for general mall production. I have no idea how to accomplish that, though.

You're missing the point I'm trying to make.

Sure building a space casino requires some amount of duplication, but a full space casino setup is still far smaller and more manageable than a traditional large factory.

But once you do that, once you have a steady stream of legendary versions of the core resources and modules - You're now into the endgame.

Everything changes, the ratios, how you build stuff. Even the core challenge changes, it's no longer about recipes as it now becomes a logistical challenge - How can I get enough belts and inserters around my legendary EM plant.

Your factories get rebuilt for massive production, but the physical size remains the same or in some cases reduce. You get to replay the game with massive numbers, with a logistical challenge that isn't tedious. That is what space casinos give you - The small amount of duplication in space unlocks a whole new approach on the surfaces. There are still some tedious parts (Legendary biter eggs!), but it's much more manageable once you have a constant stream of legendary core materials.

So I put forward the argument that space casinos create an entire game's worth of additional fun - Space casinos are the backbone of the endgame.

While i agree, legendary everything buildable only requires very little trace amounts of stuff even at 10M eSPM Base scale, were a tiny ore washer can make all the iron, coal and copper you need, over night. But with casinos gone, legendary/quality science is gone forever, maybe some setups remain viable on uncommon or maybe rare, with washing. And that is the saddest thing about this . Gating quality casinos to the abolute endgame, with some tech, is totaly fine and even wellcome for me, but removing it shows to me, the devs dont play/playtest with quality because they dont like it eather, thats why we now can play SA without quality.

[TheDash]

On "space casinos"

I haven't done much with quality yet as it seems to be quite a complicated and arduous process to scale up, but I'm slowly learning. I only found out about this "space casino" because of this heated FFF discussion. My only input is: if it is demonstrably the best/fastest/whatever way to do something, and it is part of the game so not cheating, then of course I am going to do that. I disagree with the suggestion of "don't like it/think it is OP? don't use it". No, I do actually have to use it if it is the best way - otherwise I am a fool for making things harder for myself unnecessarily.

The question of whether or not it is actually OP/balanced/fits with the game is separate to that and I don't have enough knowledge to opine.
However, if the game devs decide it is not intended behavior then that is up to them and I trust their judgement. To appease those who have a different opinion then it is reasonable to make it a toggle option (like turning off biters or turning on rich resources).

[Eulenberg]

On "space casinos"

I haven't done much with quality yet as it seems to be quite a complicated and arduous process to scale up, but I'm slowly learning. I only found out about this "space casino" because of this heated FFF discussion. My only input is: if it is demonstrably the best/fastest/whatever way to do something, and it is part of the game so not cheating, then of course I am going to do that. I disagree with the suggestion of "don't like it/think it is OP? don't use it". No, I do actually have to use it if it is the best way - otherwise I am a fool for making things harder for myself unnecessarily.

The question of whether or not it is actually OP/balanced/fits with the game is separate to that and I don't have enough knowledge to opine.
However, if the game devs decide it is not intended behavior then that is up to them and I trust their judgement. To appease those who have a different opinion then it is reasonable to make it a toggle option (like turning off biters or turning on rich resources).

The issues comes from the quality system as a whole, its it op if you compare it to upcycling or orewashing, yes. but so it the electric miner if you compare it to hand mining, or the assembler looks blatantly op if you compare it hand crafting, belts look op if you compare them to manually distribute items. the game needed more clever ways to engage with quality, similar to LDS shuffle and casinos, not less, so they dont appear to op if compared to each other, but if we only can compare casinos to its hand feeding equivalent, then hell its way to op. washing and upcycling is just tedious, repetitive, after you build it once and imo does not need any more skill than a casino, even less is you ask me. so unless we get an update to the quality system as whole in FFF443, it clear why SA can now be played without quality: because its a unfinished system that cant be properly integrated into the rest of the game. the reason why you could not disable quality it before is not the recycler being part of the quality mod, that could have been resolved way earlier, since the recycler is just a furnace, they could have made it standalone like they do now, or add a copy of the recycler to SA that only loads when quality is disabled, its because the devs wanted us to play with that system because they believed in it. and they lost the faith in it, and dropped it.

[Hurkyl]

Can you or some other people, that want casinos to be removed tell me, please were the world does piping products that didnt get upgraded from the recycler back to the assembler input involve any form of skill? people who think it casinos are op, and want them to be remove always bring this "get good" argument, when the only only way to get quality now is less skilful, imo, than building a giant space factory, defending it, and distribute its products to different planets.

I'm in the "devs absolutely should nerf things that are overpowered to balance their game" camp and not actually in the "space casinos are definitely overpowered", but to answer the question anyways....

Which items do to upcycle? Do I make loops for finished products? Do I do base materials, accepting extra recycle steps for simpler logistics? Maybe upcycling the things in the middle will work out better? Or maybe even something tangential to what I'm interested in has good properties and would be a good choice? When do I stop being willing to accept rare products and start focusing on epic or legendary? Maybe something other than craft-recycle is appropriate for certain items.

Can I parametrize the blueprints to make it easy to stamp down different kinds of items? Do I keep them all self-contained? Do I set up a manual system of fixing infrequent buffer imbalances or do I set up an automated disposal system? Or maybe I have quality feeds from other items to keep buffers balanced. How do I manage the logistics of that?

Do I augment the process with skimming? On what items, and how much? Can I set up backpressure to switch between quality skimming and productivity focus to keep the overall factory balanced?

Those are all things to think about right off the top of my head.

[Eulenberg]

Can you or some other people, that want casinos to be removed tell me, please were the world does piping products that didnt get upgraded from the recycler back to the assembler input involve any form of skill? people who think it casinos are op, and want them to be remove always bring this "get good" argument, when the only only way to get quality now is less skilful, imo, than building a giant space factory, defending it, and distribute its products to different planets.

I'm in the "devs absolutely should nerf things that are overpowered to balance their game" camp and not actually in the "space casinos are definitely overpowered", but to answer the question anyways....

Which items do to upcycle? Do I make loops for finished products? Do I do base materials, accepting extra recycle steps for simpler logistics? Maybe upcycling the things in the middle will work out better? Or maybe even something tangential to what I'm interested in has good properties and would be a good choice? When do I stop being willing to accept rare products and start focusing on epic or legendary? Maybe something other than craft-recycle is appropriate for certain items.

Can I parametrize the blueprints to make it easy to stamp down different kinds of items? Do I keep them all self-contained? Do I set up a manual system of fixing infrequent buffer imbalances or do I set up an automated disposal system? Or maybe I have quality feeds from other items to keep buffers balanced. How do I manage the logistics of that?

Do I augment the process with skimming? On what items, and how much? Can I set up backpressure to switch between quality skimming and productivity focus to keep the overall factory balanced?

Those are all things to think about right off the top of my head.

these are all questions that are valid if the quality system would be well implemented and working, but since it has a lot of fundamental flaws, upcycling the recipe that consumes to most of desired intermediate, or washing self-recycling resources, answers all your "questions" in a less skillful and more boring way, than a space casino, imo. The question of op-ness, is a matter of what you compare it with, my point is compare assemblers to hand crafting, or inserters to hand feeding and you surely come to the conclusion that they are to overpowered, and therefore have to be removed. Automation is a barebone of this game and automation is well implemented and integrated in this game. I think casinos are the barebone of the quality game.

If you remove Inserters, sure i can ask myself when and how large my buffer chest next to the Hand feed crafters should be, but thats a question we lucky dont have to ask. And an equivalent can be made to all of the points you brought. They are symptomes of a flawed system, not a challenging mechanic or supply chain you have solve. If i had perfect 1000 times folded damascus steel, sure it would be wasted to make basic screws, but if i only need 1 screw to finish my project or unclog my super factory sure everyone would do it. but we cant...

[Tertius]

But once you do [space casino], once you have a steady stream of legendary versions of the core resources and modules - You're now into the endgame.

Everything changes, the ratios, how you build stuff. Even the core challenge changes, it's no longer about recipes as it now becomes a logistical challenge - How can I get enough belts, inserters and beacons around my legendary EM plant.

Your factories get rebuilt for massive production, but the physical size remains the same or in some cases reduce. You get to replay the game with massive numbers, with a logistical challenge that isn't tedious.

That's what I'm talking about, but I guess you're not understanding my point. I'm definitely talking about the legendary endgame: every production machine is legendary quality and you're producing 240/s of something or multiples of that with a tiny factory. You don't need a space casino to comfortably build a legendary factory, not at all. You just need a proper legendary iron/copper/steel/lds/circuit factory (space casino or not), and another one for each of the planet specific buildings (always).

But I'm also talking about crafting legendary science packs, at least the red and green and yellow science packs can be crafted with the stuff a space casino is able to provide. And this definitely requires a vast duplication.

About the first point. This is my space casino alternative. It's more, it also includes an auto-mall. It's quite small. It's not perfected and steel production is not yet satisfying, and it's ugly as hell, but this is enough to upgrade all your production on all planets to legendary, as long as this stuff just needs the basic ingredients. It even includes a concrete production line that's not provided by a space casino. I'm running this on Vulcanus and input just a small amount of normal circuits produced as surplus by my pre-legendary Vulcanus production. See the 3x3+1 square made by the display panels? These list the material this setup wants as input in normal quality.

So from my point of view, if you just want all legendary production machines and produce normal science packs everywhere (with n*240/s), an upcycling factory like this is sufficient.

06-15-2026, 13-45-59.png (3.16 MiB) Viewed 260 times

[Eulenberg]

But once you do [space casino], once you have a steady stream of legendary versions of the core resources and modules - You're now into the endgame.

Everything changes, the ratios, how you build stuff. Even the core challenge changes, it's no longer about recipes as it now becomes a logistical challenge - How can I get enough belts, inserters and beacons around my legendary EM plant.

Your factories get rebuilt for massive production, but the physical size remains the same or in some cases reduce. You get to replay the game with massive numbers, with a logistical challenge that isn't tedious.

That's what I'm talking about, but I guess you're not understanding my point. I'm definitely talking about the legendary endgame: every production machine is legendary quality and you're producing 240/s of something or multiples of that with a tiny factory. You don't need a space casino to comfortably build a legendary factory, not at all. You just need a proper legendary iron/copper/steel/lds/circuit factory (space casino or not), and another one for each of the planet specific buildings (always).

But I'm also talking about crafting legendary science packs, at least the red and green and yellow science packs can be crafted with the stuff a space casino is able to provide. And this definitely requires a vast duplication.

About the first point. This is my space casino alternative. It's more, it also includes an auto-mall. It's quite small. It's not perfected and steel production is not yet satisfying, and it's ugly as hell, but this is enough to upgrade all your production on all planets to legendary, as long as this stuff just needs the basic ingredients. It even includes a concrete production line that's not provided by a space casino. I'm running this on Vulcanus and input just a small amount of normal circuits produced as surplus by my pre-legendary Vulcanus production. See the 3x3+1 square made by the display panels? These list the material this setup wants as input in normal quality.

So from my point of view, if you just want all legendary production machines and produce normal science packs everywhere (with n*240/s), an upcycling factory like this is sufficient.
06-15-2026, 13-45-59.png

this is exactly my point, space casinos, were never need for all legendary buildables and equipment, since there is only so much you ever need, but for science quality is gone, people who think they were op, only consider the effect of buildables, but buildables are super easy to get anyway without casinos. for a steady science build LDS Shuffle and Casinos are a barebone, the remaining options cant be scaled to a level were it comes close to compete with common science

[krozu]

I never used space casinos, and I don't really care if they remove it or not. Same goes for LDS shuffling. From what I'm reading the whole point of them isn't producing materials to build the factory. They're there to enable legendary science at a high and constant rate?

[bobucles]

In regards to quality/legendary science production, there is a HUGE problem with it. Simply put, there is no possible way to have large scale quality science production, which does not also include large scale quality for every other thing.

Science comes from ordinary recipes. Quality science comes from quality ordinary items. If you want legendary science, everything going into that item must be at least an epic quality. That means you have an unlimited supply of epic steel, epic chips, epic stone and plastic, and so on. If you have all that then you have everything else a dozen times over. What would you rather have, 1000 quality science packs or 200 quality assemblers? Keep in mind that 1 stacked endgame belt is ~10000 SPM.

Science would need some kind of major change to have commodity access for science, yet still have elite access for everything else.