Legendary Yumako & Jelly Nut Seeds should grow legendary plants

[angramania]

I think a good way to solve this would be quality trees yielding less fruits. If common trees yield 50 fruits each, then uncommon trees do 40, rare 30, epic 20, and legendary just 10 fruits.

Very good solution.

[Hurkyl]

No idea if this was posted already, but I think a good way to solve this would be quality trees yielding less fruits. If common trees yield 50 fruits each, then uncommon trees do 40, rare 30, epic 20, and legendary just 10 fruits.

This doesn't really solve the issue.

Uncommon agriculture would be self-sustaining right out of the box, just from the innate productivity bonus. Rare agriculture would be self-sustaining if your mash/jelly biochambers use common productivity module 2's.

Late game, with legendary productivity module 3's, epic agriculture would break even on average, as you note, and so would be mostly self-sustaining, needing only a trickle of quality rolls off of rare produce to cover the occasional unlucky streak.

It's only pure legendary that gets choked off by this change.

Yes you can change the numbers, but I hope this shows how drastic the change in numbers would need to be to actually solve the problem.

Unless, I suppose "Everything coming off of Gleba is rare quality by default" is a positive change for the game and it's just "everything coming off Gleba is legendary quality by default" that would be a problem.

[angramania]

This doesn't really solve the issue.

Depending on what we consider issue. If "preserve quality from seeds but keep existing balance in the same time" then no solution can handle it. If "let it improve odds but not to full legendary without any puzzles" then proposed solution looks good for me. Player will have to chose between productivity for self sustained and quality for further improvement. Start whole production chain from rare is a huge bonus but players will always want more. However rare + productivity is a dead end until getting high quality quality+production modules. Which means late game with space casinos and LCD recipe abuse. At this moment epic becomes a new starting step and a dead end in the same time. Legendary will never self sustain.

[Hurkyl]

Start whole production chain from rare is a huge bonus but players will always want more.

Nonetheless, it is still a huge bonus. Should there really be such a huge bonus? That it fails to completely solve the quality puzzle on its own doesn't mean it isn't already overpowered.

However rare + productivity is a dead end until getting high quality quality+production modules. Which means late game with space casinos and LCD recipe abuse. At this moment epic becomes a new starting step and a dead end in the same time. Legendary will never self sustain.

But I think the impact on early-mid game is an even bigger issue: that 'dead end' is for all products to be top of the line materials, at very minimal cost in comparison to your other options for quality.

This change will make Gleba the "replace everything in your factory with rare stuff" planet after going to space. That's a pretty major impact on the balance of a normal playthrough. And I very much get the impression that intended game balance is for quality to be, for most of a regular playthrough, something meant you use sparingly where it has the most effect, rather than a mass upgrade.

[angramania]

Nonetheless, it is still a huge bonus. Should there really be such a huge bonus?

In my opinion - no. I'm satisfied with the current balance. So I do not like idea of preserving quality through seeds at all.
However from all suggestions to balance starting idea, this one looks the most appealing for me.

This change will make Gleba the "replace everything in your factory with rare stuff" planet after going to space. That's a pretty major impact on the balance of a normal playthrough. And I very much get the impression that intended game balance is for quality to be, for most of a regular playthrough, something meant you use sparingly where it has the most effect, rather than a mass upgrade.

Agree, with a small notice. What was transported means more than what was produced. It is quite possible to run upcycle loop on Vulcanus and transport only rare quality items. Perhaps it still be more "productive" for items made from only copper/iron because Gleba has innate weakness for iron/copper production and as consequence expensive rockets.

[radical_larry]

Uncommon agriculture would be self-sustaining right out of the box, just from the innate productivity bonus. Rare agriculture would be self-sustaining if your mash/jelly biochambers use common productivity module 2's.

Late game, with legendary productivity module 3's, epic agriculture would break even on average, as you note, and so would be mostly self-sustaining, needing only a trickle of quality rolls off of rare produce to cover the occasional unlucky streak.

It's only pure legendary that gets choked off by this change.

What's the issue with that? Uncommon plants wouldn't be able to supply seeds for more soil, so that's a trade-off right away. Uncommon/rare stuff is also very easy to get on Fulgora and Vulcanus, so this would just put Gleba on equal footing.
It would be interesting to build a base around quality seeds, since the margins for spoilage become ever tighter as quality increases, very different from the other planets. Problems with the base could easily wipe out whole crops of quality fruits and make restarting it an interesting problem to solve.

And at the point when the player has legendary prod3s to throw around, epic quality stuff isn't that amazing anymore.

One more advantage of giving Gleba the 'easy' medium quality stuff is that Gleba buildings are pretty useless. The biggest demand for high quality planet resources are tungsten and holmium, also biter eggs but those don't depend on high quality bioflux. Biochambers/agri towers are only useful on Gleba, so all you're getting out of it are better stack inserters and rocket turrets, as well as regular buildings. Which are already easy to get in high quality with a multitude of other approaches. So it wouldn't affect balancing much, if at all. I think if most people have a choice between 'Gleba agriculture x5 quality logistics' vs the good ol' space casino, we all know what they'll end up building.

Maybe let quality plants also emit more pollution.

[crimsonarmy]

Maybe let quality plants also emit more pollution.

Well they would give less fruit per pollution and take more space to grow, so...

[coffee-factorio]

Uncommon agriculture would be self-sustaining right out of the box, just from the innate productivity bonus. Rare agriculture would be self-sustaining if your mash/jelly biochambers use common productivity module 2's.

Late game, with legendary productivity module 3's, epic agriculture would break even on average, as you note, and so would be mostly self-sustaining, needing only a trickle of quality rolls off of rare produce to cover the occasional unlucky streak.

It's only pure legendary that gets choked off by this change.

What's the issue with that? Uncommon plants wouldn't be able to supply seeds for more soil, so that's a trade-off right away. Uncommon/rare stuff is also very easy to get on Fulgora and Vulcanus, so this would just put Gleba on equal footing.

Because if you fix the rate of production on fruit mash to the availability of bioflux, you get the same "double pick" as Fulgora scrap and you get a 1/8 pick at your forges or just brute force multiply all populations of items by 1.5 times because you're making enough stuff.

If you double pick then 1/4 of your bioflux + mash becomes uncommon. And 1/4 of that becomes rare normally. Which means if you get a yellow belt worth of ore generation 1 item a second is guaranteed to be rare normally. As I can do seeds to soil and overgrowth, I'd actually be able to generate a reasonable crop of interesting uncommon seeds on top of what I'll get from the initial burst of mashing and separating seeds. Instead of having it as easy as Fulgora (I'd argue it is now but it's a training issue to get the effect you want) you'd have it as easy as asteroid crushers.

It isn't that it's a bad idea per say, it's just that you have to make less fruit than a ( 250% bonus using productivity + seeds from soils + initial cycles ) can produce. So that's one where it's worth tinkering with in a mod, but it's back to "not trivial, probably will explode". For instance, seeds from soils can be pulled off by shipping quality landfill from Vulcanus.