What to do in the Space Age post game?

[LizardOfOz]

A huge problem is that neither new planetary buildings nor Quality get their time to shine outside of the planetary science setups if your goal is to just beat the game, which I'd assume would be most people's goal.

Similar to how the Base Factorio ends before you have the time to use Beacons, the Space Age ends before you need to even consider using EM-Plants and Foundries on Nauvis. Foundations would be very useful on Vulcanus and Fulgora, but by the time you can unlock it you're on the home stretch. I also didn't bother with Biolabs because I couldn't bother with interplanetary spoilage logistics with the finish line being in sight.

On my first Space Age playthrough I've sent probably 30 hours on Fulgora just figuring out Quality, but ended up using none of it besides personal equipment and spidertrons (which I ended up not using anyway). The reason I've spent that much time is because I didn't know the length of the Space Age, and expected to have some time to take advantage of Epic Quality (I already saw that the Legendary Quality is too close to the finish line). Sadly, I didn't.

The root issue is that the game ends before you get to enjoy being at the peak of your power and find a purpose for making an All-Legendary Beaconed setup producing 2 green belts worth of, say, blue chips.

Maybe if the Shattered Planet would be a surface you need to build a factory on to finish the game (as I proposed in this suggestion post), Space Age would be long enough for late-game tech to find a use.

The base game also had this exact issue, but since in Space Age your Nauvis base will exist for quite a while, at least it needs to be sorted out and will use most of the tech you had before moving to space.
One example here is nuclear power. You don't need it to beat the base game, but in the Space Age your base exists for long enough to actually bother with it, as stamping more and more boilers and steam engines becomes annoying enough to bother with a proper solution.

[aka13]

Interesting take, however I disagree on the Nauvis base. I think the base, that lives the most (at least from my and my friends playthroughs) is the one on the planet you land on first after nauvis. Nauvis can be abandoned almost completely, if needed.

[LizardOfOz]

the base, that lives the most is the one on the planet you land on first after nauvis

I agree that this will likely be the case if you're playing for the first or second time. You're still interested in learning how your current planet works and will put on pause any issues on Nauvis.

However, if you're a somewhat seasoned player, you know that you can beat the game with the bare minimum on other planets. Stack inserters, green belts, quality, fusion power - you can beat the game perfectly fine without using any of that.

Once you know what you're doing, even the space constraints of space platforms aren't "real" for the purpose of just beating the game - just launch a platform that crafts space platform foundations from the asteroids using advanced crushing. Or just build a stockpile of rocket launching material.



There's one big "assumption" I'm making about the player in this scenario - they are pretty familiar with the game, but they can't bring themselves to do anything beyond just beating the game. And this is why I've posted this in this thread - both me and (seemingly) the topic starter are that kind of player. We want more time between when you obtain the full power and when the extrinsic motivation ends.

You'd feel more encouraged to "go on side-quests" if the end is not nigh. If you know that you will spend enough time with the Legendary machines to even bother with Quality. If railguns would get to shoot things other than huge asteroids. If there would be tech advancing researches that would take advantage of that research productivity you've built that promethium ship for.

[Tertius]

both me and (seemingly) the topic starter are that kind of player. We want more time between when you obtain the full power and when the extrinsic motivation ends.

Yes, I'm not just bored or just expect to be entertained, but it's really difficult to come up with something meaningful later. Upgrading the factory hasn't very high entertainment value, since you're not really doing something meaningful. It doesn't have impact.

I browsed the mods to get an idea what others did, but I didn't find anything that really appealed to me. Every mod seems to bring a large number of research, new recipes and new items with its own dependency tree with them. I hesitate to try these mods, because I'm not sure how balanced they are. Are they good or do they waste my time?

I thought of creating my own post-game mod - I envision something like building a huge radio telescope/antenna constellation around the solar system to seek contact with your home world, and the only recipes to unlock is the antenna recipe and a few components for assembling the antennas. We already have so many things, we don't need many more. Probably automatic recipe unlock. It requires multiple platforms, consumes huge amounts of (existing) items, must be built in space, must be moved to its place outside the edge of the solar system, must be powered and cooled, etc. It is assembled from some expensive new components, but they will be crafted just from all the basic items we already have. Must be built by all of the existing production buildings and the more rarely used items could get their use here, for example the foundation.

On the other hand I don't think I'm a good designer, and I don't have any experience with creating content, so this will probably turn out as crap. Or this has been done before and I just didn't find it yet. Or the idea is actually not as interesting as I initially thought. And of course it's not a large scale huge time consumer. Just something to do with all your shiny stuff.

[Bömmeli]

We want more time between when you obtain the full power and when the extrinsic motivation ends.

Maybe this is (a part of) the problem. Shouldn't be there some kind of intrinsic motivation while playing a game? Extrinsic motivation sounds like job and KPIs...

[LizardOfOz]

The concept of motivation in a video game is very nuanced, as strictly speaking you don't need to do anything in the game, including playing the game in the first place.

Generally speaking, people have an intrinsic desire to play the game, but it requires an extrinsic nudge to validate a goal to work towards. Typically, the victory screen is that goal.

[LizardOfOz]

I thought of creating my own post-game mod - I envision something like building a huge radio telescope/antenna constellation around the solar system to seek contact with your home world, and the only recipes to unlock is the antenna recipe and a few components for assembling the antennas. We already have so many things, we don't need many more. Probably automatic recipe unlock. It requires multiple platforms, consumes huge amounts of (existing) items, must be built in space, must be moved to its place outside the edge of the solar system, must be powered and cooled, etc. It is assembled from some expensive new components, but they will be crafted just from all the basic items we already have. Must be built by all of the existing production buildings and the more rarely used items could get their use here, for example the foundation.

This is a very good direction for such a mod - something that'd require the sheer volume of production, but with focus on mastering and expanding the existing production chains.

[Bömmeli]

Generally speaking, people have an intrinsic desire to play the game, but it requires an extrinsic nudge to validate a goal to work towards. Typically, the victory screen is that goal.

In my opinion there are at least two types of games: one where end and goal are the same, and one where end and goal are different.

Factorio is that type of game like Minecraft and RimWorld - there is an end, but no goal. Nobody plays Minecraft just to defeat the dragon. The people play thousands of hours building something, exploring, just do what they enjoy.

If launching the rocket would be the (or my) goal, I would have quit my map 4k hours ago. But I'm still playing my first and only map, because there is so much more to build, explore, test, optimize, ... I never ever thought about starting a new map. That's intrinsic motivation. It doesn't matter what Wube definied as goal. I define my own goals and the way I play the game.

So don't wait for Wube to define your goals - become the narrator of your own story.

[LizardOfOz]

Well, I feel like Minecraft actually shows that a game can benefit from a good well designed end goal (which Minecraft lacks and which causes retention problems) - many people quit Minecraft after a few hours because "I don't know what to do". To translate it to game design language: "the game fails to provide me a goal convincing enough to keep me engaged and activate my suspension of disbelief".

Many people do indeed play Minecraft just until they defeat the Dragon, and it's a shame because the game starts to open up once you get elytra and shulker boxes.

It's not the types of games - it's the types of gamers, and sandbox games like Factorio and Minecraft could totally be able to provide a great experience to both categories of gamers. Minecraft doesn't bother much with it at all, while Factorio does a decent job, but I'd like this aspect being improved.

Another thing Factorio does well is that you can make substantial progress within a few hours, and there's always (well, at least while there's tech to research) something well defined to work towards, while in Minecraft you can spend hours and feel like you've achieved nothing by the end of the day.

In Factorio, you might take a detour because you feel like it'll give you something useful when you go back to your main "quest line" - Minecraft kinda fails to make you want to do anything in the first place. That's why Minecraft modpacks with clearly defined progression and goals (which ultimately gave inspiration to Factorio) are so popular. In an ironic twist, the more you learn Factorio the more you learn which corners can be cut.

[mmmPI]

I browsed the mods to get an idea what others did, but I didn't find anything that really appealed to me. Every mod seems to bring a large number of research, new recipes and new items with its own dependency tree with them. I hesitate to try these mods, because I'm not sure how balanced they are. Are they good or do they waste my time?

That fairly obviously depends on the particular mod you're trying, Cerys that i recommended is well-balanced, whereas the randomizer obviously isn't balanced there will be some weird things to adapt to.

I think it goes to show there's nothing wrong with the mods, there's so many if you can't find one that appeal to you it must be that you are on non-receptive mood. Like if you are in a candy store and you want to try none of them, you must be not hungry or had a sugar indigestion recently. I mean you seem to be wondering what to do with your time in your introduction post, like you're running circle in the post game not finding appeal in doing things, so what is there to loose to try a mod ? to see if it is balanced or not according to your own criterions x). It sound to me you are asking for ways to "spend time" !

You can also make your own mod ! that's a thing many "players" did and they became modder, so you can implement your own meaningfull antenna that cost a lot of material and doesn't provide any other function that gating the win screen (and doesn't count as additionnal building x)). Like a unique flavor candy that you like and maybe other people will like too. I don't personnally see how it is meaningful, so that makes it hard to make recommendation of things 'similarly meaningful' but that's the kind of thing i could try out of curiosity, to have some fun and potentially recommend it if i think it's worth it

I think the question of "balance" for mods can be dealt with the idea that you pick a mod with a license that allow further modification, and you tweak it to suit your particular desire should the case arise that you find someting that doesn't suit your taste. 2 birds one stone, you learn the basic of modding with the tweaking , and you have a mod that is tailored for your own idea of fun. That's not like you just finished a good book that kept you thrilled for weeks and you can do little about the feeling that it is now finished and you know the story. Where you have to learn how to live with this as you can't just write the follow up yourself and hope to be suprised by the plot. In video game, especially if you want no new building, recipe nor technology, you are not looking for a surprise, you can make the rules for a puzzle in less times than it takes to solve it afterward. And making the puzzle is a puzzle in itself.

But if no mods sounds appealing to you it will be hard to start somewhere for your own mod, how do you know what to put inside that you will enjoy ? I feel usually when you answer those question for yourself, you start noticing things that have similarities, or connexions, and that create an appeal to test them, to see how it was done, identify the parts you like and what you don't, you may end up revising your judgments on what is fun , and not even finish your own mod, but that gives a perspective in playing that is "discovering things you like", instead of "finishing the game". It's more about the mindset. You don't waste your time, you discover new things , including some terrible flavor of candy that you will forever avoid in the future, but that's how you know which candy from the store are your favourite and which flavor to use in your own candy bars x)

[Bömmeli]

I like Minecraft as let's play. Just watch what the people are doing. But I never played it for my own, because I'm one of those, who don't know what to do.
Instead I spent thousands of hours in the Anno series and Factorio, because there's a framework where I'm able to define my own goals.

So maybe Factorio is just the wrong game for people, who are not able to define their own goals after reaching the goals defined by Wube? Or... "wrong" is maybe a little bit to hart. The first playthrough vanilla will take a while, and Space Age ever longer. Most games are even shorter than one Factorio playthough. And when it's done, the people move to the next game.

So maybe that's the difference? If Factorio isn't the perfect match, it's fun for 50, 100, 200 hours and then it's time to play something else. And for those where it's the perfect match, they'll define their own goals and spent hundreds or thousands of hours...?

[LizardOfOz]

it's fun for 50, 100, 200 hours and then it's time to play something else.

My point is that you can extend the playtime for that kind of players [relatively] easy and cheap by having a stage where you need to produce massive volumes of resources once you've unlocked the tech.

Sure, you can technically set up an arbitrary goal, of, say, reaching 100 science per second, yourself, but it doesn't hit the same when it's not a developer imposed goal. Suspension of disbelief is a fragile thing that works in arbitrary ways.

[LizardOfOz]

Guess I need to restore the focus on the problem I personally have with the game: the official win condition of reaching the system edge is so close, that you don't need to make proper bases on other planets to achieve it (all you need is local science packs and turrets), and even a Nauvis base doesn't need to go big - it just needs to be well designed to not require maintenance, while the high-end tech doesn't get its time to shine.

I wish the official win condition (maybe an optional official "super-win" condition, since when you play the Space Age for the first time and haven't optimized your play yet is actually pretty long) was far enough away and big enough to warrant building a "proper base".

[Panzerknacker]

I wish the official win condition was far enough away and big enough to warrant building a "proper base".

And I think this is a very valid wish.

It will make the game better and I hope this gets considered for 2.1.

[Bömmeli]

My point is that you can extend the playtime for that kind of players [relatively] easy and cheap by having a stage where you need to produce massive volumes of resources once you've unlocked the tech.

Oh... if that's the point and you just need a reason to procedure an incredible amount of stuff - join my world. I call it Oremageddon. Size, frequency and richness are set to max, intermediate buildings on ore are allowed, permanet ones strictly forbidden. So the only ways are a spaghetti base all over the map between all the ore patches, or to mine like there is no tomorrow to free up the space for a proper factory.

I wanted to expand the iron plate production, but the place was blocked by a huge coal patch. Hmm...I could get rid of the coal patch by building a 14k steam engine power plant. Hmm... the space for the power plant is mostly blocked by coal, iron, copper and stone patches. I could get rid of the patches if I build...

It starts and ends always the same It's an infinite loop of the plan to build something, and build something else to free up the space. And sure, produce something, because it's impossible to store trillions of ores.

It's a funy game of dependencies, forecasts for weeks and months, prioritizing patches and even single tiles, parallism, and so on.

But it's also slow. So there's no way for fast achivements. Everything takes weeks or months, so you need a couple of parallel construction sites if the game should'nt become a boring wait for something thing. So maybe it's better when it stays my way to play Factorio, and doesn't become mainstream. I don't think most people would like it.