Make Lamp in Electromagnetic Plant

[Hurkyl]

TL;DR

Allow Lamps to be made in Electromagnetic Plants.

What?

I suggest that the Lamp should be craftable by Electromagnetic Plants in addition to the character and in Assemblers. No removal of functionality, just addition.

Why?

It seems thematically appropriate. I was surprised when I first tried to do so but couldn't find the Lamp in the Electromagnetic Plant crafting menu. So much so that it took probably a half dozen more tries before I stopped expecting to see the Lamp there.

[eugenekay]

The Lamp (being a Final Product, not an Intermediate Product) does not qualify for Productivity Modules, so allowing it to be produced in the Electromagnetic Plant (which has a +50% Productivity Bonus) would lead to Balance issues.

There is of course a mod that does it anyway.

Good Luck!

[Hurkyl]

Given that the lamp is extremely cheap, purely* cosmetic, and isn't used as an ingredient for anything, I fail to see how there is a balance issue here.

And the the Electromagnetic Plant already produces final products that do not qualify for productivity modules, such as beacons, modules, and electromagnetic plants.

*: Okay, I guess technically it could be used as a darkness detector through the electricity consumption when on vs off, so it does have noncosmetic use.

[eugenekay]

Given that the lamp is extremely cheap, purely* cosmetic, and isn't used as an ingredient for anything, I fail to see how there is a balance issue here.

The Electromagnetic Plant has 5 Module Slots, allowing for a larger Quality Bonus (+31%) than the Assembling Machine 3 (+24.8%). Combined with the extra Productivity Bonus you could make a far more efficient Quality Recycling setup than normally possible.

Quality doesn't do anything for Lamps, and this is already possible with other products like the Beacon, so it isn't a real problem. I don't make the rules, just point to what already exists.

[Panzerknacker]

It's just fun and completely fine if there are randomly things that behave different in the game. Maybe this is one of them, maybe not. The lamp produces fine in assembling machines so make em there!

[mmmPI]

The Lamp (being a Final Product, not an Intermediate Product) does not qualify for Productivity Modules, so allowing it to be produced in the Electromagnetic Plant (which has a +50% Productivity Bonus) would lead to Balance issues.

But you can make beacons, or other EM plant in the EM plant, both "final product" that normally do not qualify for productivity module. I don't see the balance issue there.

[CyberCider]

Given that the lamp is extremely cheap, purely* cosmetic, and isn't used as an ingredient for anything, I fail to see how there is a balance issue here.

These are the reasons why this feature sounds pointless to me. Lamps aren’t upcycled for quality either, and aren’t mass produced nearly as much as belts and pipes. Making them in the EMP sounds like it would have 0 real benefit.

[mmmPI]

The feature has 0 downside , and would also apply nicely to combinators , for a thematic addition

[Koub]

[Koub] Moving this to Balancing from Ideas and suggestions.

[Hurkyl]

Given that the lamp is extremely cheap, purely* cosmetic, and isn't used as an ingredient for anything, I fail to see how there is a balance issue here.

These are the reasons why this feature sounds pointless to me. Lamps aren’t upcycled for quality either, and aren’t mass produced nearly as much as belts and pipes. Making them in the EMP sounds like it would have 0 real benefit.

The only reason for the suggestion is that I because of the theming and things already made in the EM plant, I was pretty certain that Lamps would be too and was surprised they are not. I presume I was not alone in this expectation, in which case this change would benefit the game by fixing this mismatch of expectations.

If I am essentially alone in this expectation, then of course, the suggestion shouldn't be implemented.

[aka13]

I would also find it "thematically" correct to make lamps in the EM plant , +1

[crimsonarmy]

It never occurred to me but yeah. +1 for theme

[coffee-factorio]

Given that the lamp is extremely cheap, purely* cosmetic, and isn't used as an ingredient for anything, I fail to see how there is a balance issue here.

And the the Electromagnetic Plant already produces final products that do not qualify for productivity modules, such as beacons, modules, and electromagnetic plants.

*: Okay, I guess technically it could be used as a darkness detector through the electricity consumption when on vs off, so it does have noncosmetic use.

The thing to look for precedent isn't the obvious stuff like relatively slow beacons or modules, but things like electric poles you can belt out in 1/2 a second if you're after a volume of quality production products.

The main counter argument I can see is that it lets you have 1/2 second of doing 2 electric circuits worth of material, without using a volume of steel as soap.

[mmmPI]

The thing to look for precedent isn't the obvious stuff like relatively slow beacons or modules, but things like electric poles you can belt out in 1/2 a second if you're after a volume of quality production products.
The main counter argument I can see is that it lets you have 1/2 second of doing 2 electric circuits worth of material, without using a volume of steel as soap.

That's not a counter argument, it doesn't make any sense to mention steel here, and there exist countless receipe that make much more sense than lamp to use to increase quality.

[coffee-factorio]

It's a straw man. I'm content for the argument to be presented to this extent because imo a person has enough information to thoroughly beat the straw man.

The idea it effects balance is contingent on it being a technically easy route electronic circuits and by extension to iron and copper plates for easy building. Which just doesn't hold up, but medium electric poles kind of cloud that idea with the notion of "well you have to pay steel to get similar". For my part, I think proc. units just does everything better that this recipe could do to make it be considered broken so the idea kind of deserves to have the straw taken out of it.

[mmmPI]

It's a straw man. I'm content for the argument to be presented to this extent because imo a person has enough information to thoroughly beat the straw man.

The idea it effects balance is contingent on it being a technically easy route electronic circuits and by extension to iron and copper plates for easy building. Which just doesn't hold up, but medium electric poles kind of cloud that idea with the notion of "well you have to pay steel to get similar". For my part, I think proc. units just does everything better that this recipe could do to make it be considered broken so the idea kind of deserves to have the straw taken out of it.

It's not a straw man, you are saying that lamp may be a question for balance, and it makes no sense, as you say yourself, it doesn't hold up. It's not a problem for balance if you add something that is in no way any better than what exist already. There is no logic in using medium pole or mentionning steel in any way it's just something unrelated which overall doesn't constitute any meanningful argument.

Yes it will be possible to use lamp for recycling, if you think that's a balance issue feel free to explain why the possibility to recycle lamp is a balance issue, you have quite obviously decided to defend the opposite point of view of the one i expressed, and just after it, but now it look like it was just for the sake of contradiction.

If you say "because it allows a route to get quality green circuit without using steel which constitute a balance issue" then you argument is non-sensical, because there's no bakance issue mentionned there, you seem to say yourself the same mentionning prod. unit being better in everything at the end. Therefore i believe your main counter argument is moot :

:

The main counter argument I can see is that it lets you have 1/2 second of doing 2 electric circuits worth of material, without using a volume of steel as soap.

That's not a valid counter argument, as you seem to have realized, because there's already plenty better ways to do, and it was the only one you presented. Therefore i believe it should be fairly easy to recognize that the suggestion doesn't cause balance issue now.

[coffee-factorio]

It's not a straw man, you are saying that lamp may be a question for balance, and it makes no sense, as you say yourself, it doesn't hold up. It's not a problem for balance if you add something that is in no way any better than what exist already. There is no logic in using medium pole or mentionning steel in any way it's just something unrelated which overall doesn't constitute any meanningful argument.

Medium electric poles demonstrates something already exists that is about as good as lamps could be directly.

Crafting time is 0.5s just like a lamp. So if you're looking at production volume on a simple supply chain, that's where you see a potential benefit.

There's some technical details that make it not the best example. But the better examples are substations and big electric poles, so that's like saying the minimum viable example doesn't demonstrate what the class will do: give you back iron, steel and copper at a rate slightly worse to slightly better than a lamp.

A truly stubborn man's only recourse is to say "but it takes steel, so it is not as easy... 2 things might jam instead of one". And uh... I mean your options are to use fast, single goal recipes for the materials a lamp has. Which exist. Use a cheese. Like proc. units. Or just unjam the thing by using or shredding steel.

It is a flimsy argument made of straw.