Demolisher sizes as weapon tech gates

[CyberCider]

Currently medium, and even large demolishers can be killed using the same methods as small demolishers but scaled up. This leaves them feeling kind of static and detached from the game’s progression, despite being huge and imposing and one of the only interesting things Vulcanus has going on. But what if demolisher sizes were like asteroid sizes, each requiring a new unlock to overcome?

Small demolishers can stay the same. But medium demolishers would be highly resistant to physical and explosive damage, but less to electric. They should however still be unkillable with Nauvis levels of electric damage + destroyer bots, because the idea is to lock the ability to kill medium demolishers behind Fulgora tech, specifically the electric damage upgrades. My original idea would have also left them vulnerable to explosive upgrades from Gleba, loosening the requirement to having beaten any other planet rather than Fulgora specifically, and also broadening the amount of tactics that could be used. But I realized that nukes and reactor explosions make that impossible in practice.

Big demolishers would essentially gain the stat structure of huge asteroids: Impervious to everything but railguns. However railguns still shouldn’t instakill them, it should still be a real fight that demands some attention and makes it worth it to invest into railgun upgrades. Frankly I believe the ridiculous interaction between demolishers and railguns, as well as the relative worthlessness of railgun infinite technology past the very first few levels, to be serious flaws of the way railguns work. But that’s a topic for another thread… viewtopic.php?p=653496&

Now, if any of you are concerned about the possibility of a softlock: Remember that it’s still entirely possible to mine in a demolisher’s territory while it’s still alive! It’s just tricky. Imo it’s just the correct level of harsh to players who delayed progression for too long. Also sulfuric acid, the planet’s fuel for power, is a pumpjack resource. So it will never truly run out, and you would at least be able to keep your roboports on indefinitely.

I also didn’t mention poison damage. I don’t have too much experience with using poison capsules, but my impression is that they can only be a supplementary weapon to use in conjunction with others. And they should be able to safely remain in that role without affecting the core purpose of the suggestion, and it just would add a bit of variety. But if I’m wrong and it’s somehow possible to kill a medium demolisher with poison alone, feel free to tell me

As a related side note, I believe Vuclanus’s starter patches should be dramatically shrunken down, and the first patches with any real long term usability should be in small demolisher territories. It would make players interact with demolishers more, besides the single obligatory one that’s guarding the tungsten. Besides, it’s shocking how much larger and richer Vulcanus’s starter patches are compared to Nauvis’s, when there’s no reason for them to be any different. If anything, Vulcanus should have smaller ones. It’s a later and by extension harder planet, and the player also has efficiency boosting technologies by the time they arrive to it.

But hey, I think this suggestion would also have the beneficial effect of making tesla weapons more important and attractive to research, as currently you can comfortably beat the game without touching them (I would know, because I’ve done so myself).

[mmmPI]

idea is to lock the ability to kill medium demolishers behind Fulgora tech,

That's quite bad imo because it reduces options players have with no real benefit

[crimsonarmy]

I like the idea, but the way to implement it seems lacking.

[h.q.droid]

I'd say anything that restricts play styles is bad. But big / medium demolishers do offer too little challenge / reward right now.

I'm more inclined for giving different rewards for killing them with different ways. For example, if you shoot a demolisher with turrets, you damage its skin and tungsten ore fly everywhere and you can pick them up even if you don't manage to kill it. If you kill it with (uranium) canon shells, you get the tungsten ore in bulk like right now. If you one-shot it with a railgun, it would instantly penetrate its lava organ and create a huge lava pool instead of the corpse. If you poison it, you get to scavage some spoilage / eggs and unlock biochambers (with only nutrient recipes) early. If you electrocute it in the most humane manner, you get tungsten with quality proportional to your ammo quality. If you nuke them, you get some radioactive lava that gives you back some uranium.

[CyberCider]

I like the idea, but the way to implement it seems lacking.

I agree it’s not very clean. The problem is that unlike the space platform, the engineer has access to every damage type since Nauvis. So it’s impossible to simply lock things behind damage types the way asteroids do it.

[crimsonarmy]

I like the idea, but the way to implement it seems lacking.

I agree it’s not very clean. The problem is that unlike the space platform, the engineer has access to every damage type since Nauvis. So it’s impossible to simply lock things behind damage types the way asteroids do it.

I think changing the damage resistances could help even if nothing is locked behind anything.

[Kyralessa]

I'm more inclined for giving different rewards for killing them with different ways. For example, if you shoot a demolisher with turrets, you damage its skin and tungsten ore fly everywhere and you can pick them up even if you don't manage to kill it. If you kill it with (uranium) canon shells, you get the tungsten ore in bulk like right now. If you one-shot it with a railgun, it would instantly penetrate its lava organ and create a huge lava pool instead of the corpse. If you poison it, you get to scavage some spoilage / eggs and unlock biochambers (with only nutrient recipes) early. If you electrocute it in the most humane manner, you get tungsten with quality proportional to your ammo quality. If you nuke them, you get some radioactive lava that gives you back some uranium.

How would an ordinary average player know about this? If you killed a demolisher with turrets and made that your go-to method, how would you ever know that a different method could yield different rewards?

[CyberCider]

I'm more inclined for giving different rewards for killing them with different ways.

I feel like Vulcanus of all planets is really not in need of any more rewards. The planet is plenty rewarding, to the point where it feels too easy and boring. Like it’s rewarding you for nothing, just giving out free stuff even if you didn’t do anything to earn it. It’s kind of unsatisfying compared to the other planets. They each have a new problem to solve, but Vulcanus just… Doesn’t? Liquid metals aren’t a problem, they actively help you instead of getting in your way. The stone can be voided instantly and for free, so it might as well not even exist. And coal liquefaction is cool, but it’s a vanilla feature, it can’t be compared to the entire spoilage system or scrap recycling with its 10 complex byproducts. And that’s not even mentioning nutrient machines, egg/bacteria loops, small building spaces, disconnected power networks, many intermediates… Vulcanus doesn’t have anything even close to those. If it weren’t for the amazing graphics and music, it would be hard to believe it was made by the same developers and not an amateur modder.

My suggestion aims to add more challenge to Vulcanus, not more reward. Because it has plenty enough reward but virtually no challenge, and the better planets have both. The only way to really bring Vulcanus up to standard would be to give the planet a rework, complete with a brand new mechanic. But Space Age is nearly a year old, so it’s obviously too late to do that But I believe smaller changes like these could still contribute to making it feel less out if place.

Your ideas are conceptually very cool though! They would make for a really fun mod if they could be implemented.

[mmmPI]

Like it’s rewarding you for nothing, just giving out free stuff even if you didn’t do anything to earn it. It’s kind of unsatisfying compared to the other planets

Your proposition doesn't change any of that though since you propose to arbitrarily adds an annoying gate on "medium and big demolisher" , it really misses the target because you can still have everything from Vulcanus without ever needing to attack those.

[CyberCider]

Your proposition doesn't change any of that though since you propose to arbitrarily adds an annoying gate on "medium and big demolisher" , it really misses the target because you can still have everything from Vulcanus without ever needing to attack those.

You know what, you’re right. This change would only make a difference if a whole multitude of other changes were made with it, and that’s not what this post alone proposes.

Like, even if calcite patches were shrunken down to a sane size and richness, the calcite throughput requirement on Vulcanus was appropriately increased, tungsten plates and orange science packs were given new better recipes… Players could still land on Vulcanus for the first time with 20 levels of mining productivity already in their pocket . So much work is required to make expansion for resources a real and important mechanic again, and that is the only situation where my proposal would actually accomplish anything. So implementing it on its own wouldn’t achieve the desired effect, only unwanted side effects. You were right to point that out and make me think about it.

[mmmPI]

Your proposition doesn't change any of that though since you propose to arbitrarily adds an annoying gate on "medium and big demolisher" , it really misses the target because you can still have everything from Vulcanus without ever needing to attack those.

You know what, you’re right. This change would only make a difference if a whole multitude of other changes were made with it, and that’s not what this post alone proposes.

Like, even if calcite patches were shrunken down to a sane size and richness, the calcite throughput requirement on Vulcanus was appropriately increased, tungsten plates and orange science packs were given new better recipes… Players could still land on Vulcanus for the first time with 20 levels of mining productivity already in their pocket . So much work is required to make expansion for resources a real and important mechanic again, and that is the only situation where my proposal would actually accomplish anything. So implementing it on its own wouldn’t achieve the desired effect, only unwanted side effects. You were right to point that out and make me think about it.

Thanks it's not easy to recognize one's mistake, it's easier to just ignore valid criticism

Maybe another one of your proposition will stick to the wall, if you keep throwing ? Quantity is a quality in itself i think is the belief of some

good luck !

[h.q.droid]

How would an ordinary average player know about this? If you killed a demolisher with turrets and made that your go-to method, how would you ever know that a different method could yield different rewards?

I didn't know either. But turrets won't kill bigs or even mediums (unless you have really good ammo) so eventually everyone comes back and go hunting with a railgun. It would be a nice discovery when railgun does something different to incentivize trying different weapons.

Personally I have killed all the bigs I need, but when I imported a batch of legendary tesla ammo from Fulgora, I still want to shoot a few more for fun. The current result is I almost got eaten with my legendary mech armor and everything, which is a bit disappointing honestly.

And maybe there should be rewards for killing things with blatantly inefficient weapons too. Like an achievement for killing demolishers with rockets like in the opening screen.

[h.q.droid]

My suggestion aims to add more challenge to Vulcanus, not more reward. Because it has plenty enough reward but virtually no challenge, and the better planets have both. The only way to really bring Vulcanus up to standard would be to give the planet a rework, complete with a brand new mechanic. But Space Age is nearly a year old, so it’s obviously too late to do that But I believe smaller changes like these could still contribute to making it feel less out if place.

Your ideas are conceptually very cool though! They would make for a really fun mod if they could be implemented.

Thank you!

I think more variety would better challenges than restrictions. Maybe giving bigs more attack patterns like an Elden Ring boss. If you have played it, Malenia is kinda like a big demolisher in that she has very high regen, big AoE attacks, and is usually regarded as the most challenging boss. But she is also vulnerable to the widest variety of player attacks by being the most stunnable! It's her tight, unforgiving attack patterns that make her fun, not any restriction of player solutions. Like in Factorio, big demolishers can spew some sticky juice at you that needs a discharge defense to repel, or spawn things that's best countered by combat bots, or have fast lunges that require landmines to stun.

I'd say it's never too late to make suggestions, just that we should try to reach a consensus with each other and the devs.

[coffee-factorio]

Thank you!

I think more variety would better challenges than restrictions. Maybe giving bigs more attack patterns like an Elden Ring boss. If you have played it, Malenia is kinda like a big demolisher in that she has very high regen, big AoE attacks, and is usually regarded as the most challenging boss. But she is also vulnerable to the widest variety of player attacks by being the most stunnable! It's her tight, unforgiving attack patterns that make her fun, not any restriction of player solutions. Like in Factorio, big demolishers can spew some sticky juice at you that needs a discharge defense to repel, or spawn things that's best countered by combat bots, or have fast lunges that require landmines to stun.

I'd say it's never too late to make suggestions, just that we should try to reach a consensus with each other and the devs.

It is noted you have to document all of this. The flip side is we have the Factorpedia now, so that gives normal players and modders an area where; they can push it forward or maybe just check to see if there is the capacity to do that. Even if the documentation provided was a "???" it would get the point across.

Could it effect quality? From a technical standpoint, when I looked at modding quality, there was mods that grab an entity just before the game loaded and rewrite it. So if you spawned quality demolishers at a certain distance, you might be able to do that.

I also believe there's an onkilled event...
https://lua-api.factorio.com/latest/eve ... ntity_died
https://lua-api.factorio.com/latest/con ... ilter.html

ADHD man has been reading the docs every now and then on break. The tricky thing is swapping out the loot table or setting it up so you just spawn something there.