Ban quality modules from asteroid crushers

[mmmPI]

but for some reason no-one created a mod that removes quality module in crushers. Maybe i haven't found one

I know that there are at least two.

Can you link anything ? because i see so many mods that make quality easier that seem popular already, those are all over the place when you type "quality" in the mod portal, really indicating that many players wants to have it more accessible, not the opposite as again i couldn't find a mod that ban quality module from crusher. Which i can only understand as because the idea is not much desired by anyone. Maybe i don't have the proper wording . I would be curious to see the popularity of those 2 mods because surely that will give an indication about what is more popular right ? to compare to the dozens that makes quality easier ....

[CyberCider]

I'm of the opinion that one should not need much effort to get some infrastructure after legendary. Vanilla Factorio's post-victory game is very grindy and repetitive. Quality seems to be intended as an extension of that. As a result, many players simply stay away from it because how unrewarding the original design is. You can deduce that from the many screenshots without a single quality building. If one wants to grind, why do simple upcycling instead of a vanilla megabase? That logistics puzzle is more rewarding and less annoying. Fixing recycler lines clogging is not fun at all as any player getting to that point has already experienced it in Fulgora.

The simple, unoptimized ship giving you legendary infrastructure is a very nice departure from that. It gives fast reward for the 5000 science unlocking legendary. I'd have preferred a whole legendary ship to be towed back to Nauvis from Solar's Edge which would reward the "victory" too.

More importantly, the instant legendary infrastructure allows spaghetti play styles to survive smoothly. With legendary everything you can get to ~10k SPM with spaghetti only. Not having to modularize, expand or grind in Space Age makes it fun for a broader player base, including me. I would never have built the legendary science base without my 6-crusher legendary platform.

Well, this is understandable. I’m glad to hear that you acknowledge and understand the effect quality asteroid rerolling has on the playerbase and their treatment of quality, we just have different views on that effect.

Wall of text warning

I don’t know, I just see no point to the quality mechanic existing if getting the items isn’t “hard”. Designing recycler lines that are thoroughly clog-proof, scaling up the base to provide the common items (which with itself brings the requirement of designing scalable designs), scaling the base up even more to research Space Age’s many infinite techs that all help in their own way (even the military ones help with promethium!), the positive feedback loop of progressively upgrading things level by level if you can manage the changing ratios… With traditional quality methods it’s also a lot more worthwhile to learn and apply some more advanced techniques, because efficiency matters more. And you of all people must understand how satisfying it is to learn the most advanced possible ways to do things.

Anyway, that’s where I see the fun of the mechanic. The powerful items are nice, but they’re just a measure of success, not the source of enjoyment. They’re just like the SPM number: You don’t build because you want to see a bigger number, you build because you want to see a bigger factory. This isn’t a clicker game, it’s a factory game. The number is just feedback that you built it right.

There’s also the important fact that quality is optional. Yes it’s vanilla so it should still be in the same ballpark as the rest of the game, but I believe its optional status gives it some leeway. It doesn’t have to be for everyone everyone, and it doesn’t have to be compatible with every little unscalable starter base. Like you said, some people would rather build a common quality megabase, and I say let them. Better yet, if you think about it, quality actually has 4 whole levels of optional. What’s stopping someone from making an uncommon, rare or epic base? If they choose to challenge themselves to “legendary or bust”, that’s on them. It’s well known that in the Factorio community there are many people who live for the “modularize, expand, grind”, and those are the people who will seek out full legendary and enjoy the road to obtaining it. Not everyone has to reach the same level as them. Anyway, I believe that there’s nothing wrong with some people not entirely fancying an optional mechanic, because it’s optional.

Besides, I think many people’s “dissatisfaction” with legit quality actually stems from the exploits themselves. Consciously or not, people have come to treat those as the baseline, and see upcycling as “harder”. When in reality this is backwards, as upcycling is the baseline and the exploits are the deviation from it. I believe that if the change were to be made, most people would get used to the new baseline in time. Just like Space Age made some vanilla items suddenly more difficult to obtain, and in the months leading up to release players were expecting the game to be unplayable because cliff explosives and artillery are on Vulcanus. But nowadays you rarely hear anyone bring it up, it’s just the new normal. And the wider community would no doubt start to communicate and share more about upcycling, spreading techniques and advice so that everyone understands it better. And of course, those who don’t want to give it a chance would simply install the mod and happily remain in their preferred version of the game.

[mmmPI]

I meant destroying them for nothing It's like a ~4% yield difference and not worth the logistics hassle or the UPS. I tried throwing them into lava too but that was actually slower than recyclers. To think I mourned every rotten fruit at the start...

I don't understand how you calculate the 4% yield difference, is it on the mined coal ? To me it appears much higer when you compare only the last step of recycling, where you have roughly 50% chance of quality upgrade if you use cryoplant to make the plastic from rare coal, even using epic coal, only 50% will turn legendary.

They buffed the UPS significantly in some recent update. Also when used for legendary iron ore specifically, they were better than ore mining before the buff considering that you get ~5 legendary ore per asteroid. They are indeed worse than ore mining for coal though. The key trick is don't get too greedy with asteroid density. The cost of turret aiming is at least the total number of asteroids / in-range turret pairs, which is effectively quadratic. So a fleet between Vulcanus and Nauvis can be better than a single big ship to shattered planet, or even Aquillo.

Asteroid shuffling also has a subtle benefit of producing iron in the easiest-to-transport form: legendary asteroids. Each rocket of that gives you 6k legendary iron plates which you can use on smaller ships.

Well UPS may varies on different computers, but to me it appears that it isn't the turrets that consume my UPS the most, but rather the asteroid collectors. Maybe it also has to do with asteroid density, maybe i have somehow avoided travel-route/speed combo that would have lead to my turrets being my UPS drain, cuz in my game it's always the asteroid collectors x). They are connected with circuits to pick up only the required type of chunk, maybe that increases needlessly the UPS drain, i haven't delved much into optimizing UPS of those because imo it was loss of time as the UPS efficient way was to upcycle the ore directly.

Transferring things from a ship to another one is just a big no-no to me ( for ups and logistic) . Same as dropping chunks on planets. I'd rather drop the legendary iron plates.

The same! Asteroid shuffling is an amazing design that necessitates multiple iterations of the optimal strategy:

- Transition from reprocessing to basic processing at asteroid productivity 26
- Transition from upcycling rare / epic byproducts to throwing them away at UPS / clogging bottleneck
- Transition into full-quality plastic making at plastics productivity 30
- Transition to coal mining at enough mining productivity
- An envisioned future transition to calcite mining

The quality calcite mining is the one i go for first, because calcite patches are so rich even with moderate mining prod ( 100 ) they seem to last "forever". But what makes me the most curious here is the transition from reprocessing to basic processing at asteroid prod 26. Why ? Do you mean somehow the space casino is obsolete then ? The proposition from this thread aim at removing the possibility to use quality module in crushers for "reprocessing", when reading the first post and not just the title. Which makes me think that it would miss its target if players still uses space casino after reaching asteroid prod lvl 26.

( i am working on a muscial coal-lector platform that may require this )

- An envisioned future transition: mining into railgun-shot cars / chests (you inspired me that overgrowth soil can make eggs with predictable spoiling progress on Vulcanus with high-enough throughput)

Oh ?! me ? I don't get it. To me overgrowth soil is what you can carry around space platform that goes for promethium mining, to ease the time constraint, you just recycle the soil over time when you need eggs and dump the other stuff.

I briefly mined into train wagons on Fulgora but at that time it was already too slow for me

I believe in Fulgora you want to mine directly into recyclers, and it's the recycler that should output directly on the wagon, since those don't necessarily need inserters
Or use robots like everyone else

Upcycling EM plants though, is one of the best recipes end-game. It actually has better yield rate than asteroid shuffling, though lower throughput due to requiring holmium and lower "density". Kinda sad I haven't found a use of the byproducts yet due to the low throughput and the high transportation cost.

I use this "only" for holmium, the byproducts are then upcycled to legendary, and the legendary stuff that exceed the limit i set on the logistic network for fulgora gets "voided" by recyclers.
One trick with the refined concrete is to turn it into "hazard" concrete, and recycle the hazard concrete into refined concrete, and then turn it into hazard, and recycle the hazard ect ect. This allows for recycling/voiding super fast compared to placing the refined concrete into the recyclers.

Of course there will always be some fake purist asking for the game to be much harder than it is, sometimes they already make the game harder for themselves by using bad methods and advocating the others use them too. There are plenty of mods that actually make the game harder, but for some reason no-one created a mod that removes quality module in crushers. Maybe i haven't found one, but my guess is more that this is terrible idea to just remove something that many players find interesting without proposing something to make up for it. ( judging by the amount of views and interaction people have with space casinos, spreadsheet, discussions and so on).

Agreed. Legendary science is like Chekhov's gun. If it exists, it should find a use. It's more canon than recycling grenades or blue undergrounds

Mmmmm that's not exactly what i said though Quality would be my Chekhov's gun, it's "unlocked" early in game, and can "interact with the plot"/ the factory, all throughout the game, but at the end/ resolve/epilogue , it takes all its place, whereas before that it was only hinting at the "end game".

Quality science is less present in my runs early game, it can be used as a voider for "some" excess quality stuff sometimes, but it's rare, most of the time i just don't do quality science, and when i do at a significant scale ( not just like 10% of my science pack of 1 color) it's only post victory screen.

[mmmPI]

Besides, I think many people’s “dissatisfaction” with legit quality actually stems from the exploits themselves. Consciously or not, people have come to treat those as the baseline, and see upcycling as “harder”. When in reality this is backwards, as upcycling is the baseline and the exploits are the deviation from it.

No no you keep repeating that but that's only you who think upcycling genades is harder than making a working asteroid rerolling platform.

[CyberCider]

Can you link anything ?

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/no-quality-cheesing
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Rocs-Hard ... ace-Tweaks

These are the two I know of. Note that while the second mod is a dedicated “hardcore” mod, that’s definitely not just because of the asteroid quality nerf. Its other features are definitely hardcore, while this one would imo be completely appropriate for vanilla.

The proposition from this thread aim at removing the possibility to use quality module in crushers for "reprocessing", when reading the first post and not just the title. Which makes me think that it would miss its target if players still uses space casino after reaching asteroid prod lvl 26.

I am aware of this, and that’s why I phrased the title very deliberately to include all asteroid recipes . And I do bring up the return rate of crushing recipes in the first paragraph of the original post. Well, I guess the advanced ones alone could be safely left in, their return rates are too low to be usable in this manner. But at that point it’s just a matter of consistency.

Overall, all asteroid recipes strangely break a rule that is established by other recipes: Any recipe that outputs its own ingredient cannot accept quality modules. Kovarex enrichment, fish breeding, pentapod eggs, bacteria cultivation… All of them follow this rule, but asteroid recipes do not. Maybe it’s because they output less than they take in? But what difference does that make? As we can clearly see, it’s still very much usable for quality shenanigans.

Such “module errors” are somewhat common in Space Age. Gleba soils accept productivity modules despite being tiles (and not being frequently used in recipes like concrete is), nutrients from biter eggs doesn’t accept quality modules, nutrients from fish doesn’t accept productivity modules (no it wouldn’t close the loop, even with legendary modules and the biochamber bonus). Eventually the time will come for all of them to be fixed, I hope. Though the soil one should be compensated for, imo, by making the soils craftable in the biochamber. That way consistency is maintained but soils can still be produced with high efficiency, which imo is good. But I’m getting off topic

[mmmPI]

Can you link anything ?

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/no-quality-cheesing
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Rocs-Hard ... ace-Tweaks

It appears to me that those are not mods that ban quality modules in crushers, but only for the reprocessing receipe. And i think the numbers of download speak for themselves compared to the mods that makes quality easier about the broader popularity.

I am aware of this, and that’s why I phrased the title very deliberately to include all asteroid recipes

Which is something i couldn't find a mod for, which makes me think the idea isn't popular to the broader spectrum of players.

Overall, all asteroid recipes strangely break a rule that is established by other recipes: Any recipe that outputs its own ingredient cannot accept quality modules. Kovarex enrichment, fish breeding, pentapod eggs, bacteria cultivation…

ignorance.jpg (35.37 KiB) Viewed 495 times

[CyberCider]

It appears to me that those are not mods that ban quality modules in crushers, but only for the reprocessing receipe.

It’s the same intention, just poorly executed. And the first mod, “no quality cheesing”, actually did implement this in an update, it’s just poorly documented.

ignorance.jpg

Well, there’s nothing for me to say here but “oops”. You correctly named that jpeg. This is what I get for not checking thoroughly.

[coffee-factorio]

It appears to me that those are not mods that ban quality modules in crushers, but only for the reprocessing receipe.

It’s the same intention, just poorly executed. And the first mod, “no quality cheesing”, actually did implement this in an update, it’s just poorly documented.

ignorance.jpg

Well, there’s nothing for me to say here but “oops”. You correctly named that jpeg. This is what I get for not checking thoroughly.

Give yourself some credit. It doesn't output bioflux. Which means that there's a natural break on the system. Fish is harder because it's an ingredient for a spidertron and because it's a universally usable source of nutrients with a stable shelf life.

And like, if you click through the link, sorry man. Like, I really am sorry you're dealing with someone who is pretending they are reading this. But one of them says specifically it removes both modules from fluids and asteroid reprocessing.

And like, just be clear, without generating that huge amount of ore, some has to give a number that indicates the thing works at a 1 in 47 rate.

no_quality_cheesing_mod.png (116.08 KiB) Viewed 415 times

Look, if the demand is for a system that's hard. I got you. But you have to understand, I'm only going to put every single item in the mod into a single recipe if I see more. The only reason why that works is because you can't megabase on the rate output on the rockets of a similar recipe. Here the challenge is to realize the opposite, you won't megabase unless you make reasonable evidence based decisions and work with materials where quantative judgements outweigh qualitative judgements.

[h.q.droid]

I meant destroying them for nothing It's like a ~4% yield difference and not worth the logistics hassle or the UPS. I tried throwing them into lava too but that was actually slower than recyclers. To think I mourned every rotten fruit at the start...

I don't understand how you calculate the 4% yield difference, is it on the mined coal ? To me it appears much higer when you compare only the last step of recycling, where you have roughly 50% chance of quality upgrade if you use cryoplant to make the plastic from rare coal, even using epic coal, only 50% will turn legendary.

I mean the plastics made from epic coal. My fault for being vague. Mined lower-quality coal does need upcycling and they make a huge difference. It's true that only 50% will turn legendary, but upcycling the other 50% will only give you 4% extra legendary, unless you do it slowly with LDS, which defeats the point of using epic coal in the first place.

The same for epic ore produced from basic processing. They give +23% yield upcycled, but they clog belts too often at productivity 30. So I found it easier to throw them into space.

Well UPS may varies on different computers, but to me it appears that it isn't the turrets that consume my UPS the most, but rather the asteroid collectors. Maybe it also has to do with asteroid density, maybe i have somehow avoided travel-route/speed combo that would have lead to my turrets being my UPS drain, cuz in my game it's always the asteroid collectors x). They are connected with circuits to pick up only the required type of chunk, maybe that increases needlessly the UPS drain, i haven't delved much into optimizing UPS of those because imo it was loss of time as the UPS efficient way was to upcycle the ore directly.

Did you put your collectors behind turrets or each other? Well they have the same complexity timing the path finding complexity, which roughly corresponds to how many twists each arm has to make before reaching their target.

The quality calcite mining is the one i go for first, because calcite patches are so rich even with moderate mining prod ( 100 ) they seem to last "forever". But what makes me the most curious here is the transition from reprocessing to basic processing at asteroid prod 26. Why ? Do you mean somehow the space casino is obsolete then ? The proposition from this thread aim at removing the possibility to use quality module in crushers for "reprocessing", when reading the first post and not just the title. Which makes me think that it would miss its target if players still uses space casino after reaching asteroid prod lvl 26.

( i am working on a muscial coal-lector platform that may require this )

It comes from the need to preserve chunk identity and get extra output. At prod 26, if you only need one chunk, the identity preservation plus extra legendary output of basic processing outweighs the productivity loss compared to reprocessing (the threshold isn't too accurate). For coal the epic byproducts aren't too useful since you don't need that much carbon, but if you only want coal the identity preservation is worth it.

[mmmPI]

those are not mods that ban quality modules in crushers, but only for the reprocessing receipe.

But one of them says specifically it removes both modules from fluids and asteroid reprocessing.

It’s the same intention, just poorly executed. And the first mod, “no quality cheesing”, actually did implement this in an update, it’s just poorly documented.

It's indeed not written anywhere that it removes quality module for basic processing too, in none of the mod . But i wouldn't say it's poorly executed on the "hard space", it's just not your proposition, but i am going to believe it's making more sense, from having tested other "hard mode" from same author, i'm curious to try the quality asteroid that are present on the mod

For the other one i'm also convinced the author makes quality mod, from having played with other mods from the same author, and when downloading it and checking the code , it look like it's removing quality module in crusher, and not just in asteroid reprocessing contrary to what says the picture posted by the troll.

In any case my point still stand i believe, the number of downloads for the one that suit the most your proposition is similar to the number of download from some of my mods ! That's clearly not a popular mod x) And i don't think it's because the description is outdated. You can still use it for yourself though

Well, there’s nothing for me to say here but “oops”. You correctly named that jpeg. This is what I get for not checking thoroughly.

I guess you never tried quality on Gleba, you should ! that helps a bit to understand the different options players have, before asking for some to be removed

I mean the plastics made from epic coal. My fault for being vague. Mined lower-quality coal does need upcycling and they make a huge difference. It's true that only 50% will turn legendary, but upcycling the other 50% will only give you 4% extra legendary, unless you do it slowly with LDS, which defeats the point of using epic coal in the first place.

The same for epic ore produced from basic processing. They give +23% yield upcycled, but they clog belts too often at productivity 30. So I found it easier to throw them into space.

Ok that make sense. I haven't reached asteroid productivity 30 yet, i'll editor this to try it out.

Did you put your collectors behind turrets or each other? Well they have the same complexity timing the path finding complexity, which roughly corresponds to how many twists each arm has to make before reaching their target.

I depend on the ships i have made plenty x) Sometimes i have ships were collectors do not collect much, others where there are constantly grabbing with several hands which i guess act as multiplier for the UPS cost of finding the path to grab the filtered chunks. I tried ships "so slow they have time to catch EVERY chunk" too which means many collectors and turrets are often idling. I usually put my collector at the front and turrets behind the collectors.

It comes from the need to preserve chunk identity and get extra output. At prod 26, if you only need one chunk, the identity preservation plus extra legendary output of basic processing outweighs the productivity loss compared to reprocessing (the threshold isn't too accurate). For coal the epic byproducts aren't too useful since you don't need that much carbon, but if you only want coal the identity preservation is worth it.

I understand why at some high level the basic crushing can be used to upcycle stuff, you put iron chunk you get ore + chunk, so chunk=> chunk , fine. ( that's my plan on the ship i'm working on) but i don't understand why you say it outweight the productivity loss compared to reprocessing, to me it would still appear less efficient to try the basic crushing, when the return rate on reprocessing is twice the one from basic when considering "chunk" without the ores.

Are you considering you upcycle the "wrong" type of asteroid too ? like if you want "iron" you may still allow your platform to grab "oxyde" chunks and then reprocess them until you get "legendary iron chunk". Cuz to me at this stage it would appear more logical not to, just only grab iron chunk, try to reprocess for some quality upgrade, but if turns to coal or ice not even quality, dump them form platform. (uncommon chunks of coal or ice 'should' be reprocessed in the reasonning ).

[coffee-factorio]

I guess you never tried quality on Gleba, you should ! that helps a bit to understand the different options players have, before asking for some to be removed

Well here is one, i heard those bad boyz are "relatively" more complex than asteroid shuffler. The way it works is that the mining drill puts ore in the wagon, and when it's not legendary the coal goes into a recycler. When it is legendary, it is put on a belt, from the wagon or the inserter, and it is collected in the infinity chest used for demonstration purposes.

It works unless the wagon clogs, which doesn't happen before mining productivity 200 + !! Then it's time to change the module in the beacon for a slower one.

up to mning prod 250.png

I wouldn't say it's more complex than asteroid rerolling but hey who knows ...

Well, why would try I Gleba with it's 15000 HP enemies instead of the big mining drill. Particularly if you're worried about UPS. Because every chunk is going to be interacting with spores. So if you push it far enough, you're bound to be in a tight spot when you go to scale that up.

That's kind of the central issues you raise. If some of purist pursues a harmful option, some people will just be that way.

But that would make you one of those people because you're saying to try something that contradicts half of your arguments.

those are not mods that ban quality modules in crushers, but only for the reprocessing receipe.

You are pretending that a module designed to remove cheeses doesn't. Can you show a chart, source or proof that demonstrates why Cyber did not produce valid evidence that there's interest in removing this?

Don't get me wrong, I do care that there's another side to the story. If you actually produce links to the mods you claim exist, you've got an easy out you. Actually I might bet in your favor that you could make an argument based on download numbers. And if you pick max, max is max. Can't be faked.

It's a discussion about balance. You don't have be right, and you don't have to be wrong. You just have to be able to accept that someone sees it different. The core point of their argument is that no one would ever visit your house if they where sufficiently duped by the popularity of the machines in question. We have evidence that's not the case, you have a golden opportunity to contribute.

[CyberCider]

Well, why would try I Gleba with it's 15000 HP enemies instead of the big mining drill. Particularly if you're worried about UPS. Because every chunk is going to be interacting with spores. So if you push it far enough, you're bound to be in a tight spot when you go to scale that up.

Apparently it does have some merit, it’s just not talked about much because it’s, surprise, completely overshadowed by asteroids and shuffles. The things I’ve heard about it are that quality bioflux can freely transform into quality iron, copper and coal in any ratio you desire, and that it has many opportunities for quality modules in its production chain, despite leading up to ores which are usually at the bottom of the chain, and thus usually have the least quality module rolls. I’m usually not a fan of the concept of quality ores, which is one of the problems with asteroid rerolling to begin with. Factorio isn’t about rocks and dirt, but about complex items. Those are the ones that should have quality chains, not the ores. And to scale up ores you only need to scale the mines or space platforms, which are entirely independant and isolated (and in the case of space platforms, not even constrained by your territory). Scaling entire chains of different items is much more interesting. And this is what quality ores from bioflux accomplish, which makes them quite different from the usual idea of quality ores. So I find them pretty cool, and it would be nice if they were more viable than ore recycling and “stronger ore recycling that doesn’t occupy or drain resource patches”.

Don't get me wrong, I do care that there's another side to the story. If you actually produce links to the mods you claim exist, you've got an easy out you. Actually I might bet in your favor that you could make an argument based on download numbers. And if you pick max, max is max. Can't be faked.

I’ve seen many such mods myself, and I have no doubt that they’re popular. But I know that it’s not because of the nature of quality, but rather the nature of those mods as mods that make the game easier. Because guess what? Adjustable inserters, infinite battery bots, large warehouses, infinite ore patches… All of these are also extremely popular, even if they have nothing to do with quality. Mods that lower difficulty and complexity are always popular, because by design they make the game more accessible to more people, a greater audience than the one vanilla was made for.

[Shulmeister]

Exactly, that's about the state at which I unlocked legendary. My point is, grinding for enough infrastructure without asteroid reprocessing from that state won't be fun.

Roger that !

Well, why would try I Gleba with it's 15000 HP enemies instead of the big mining drill. Particularly if you're worried about UPS. Because every chunk is going to be interacting with spores. So if you push it far enough, you're bound to be in a tight spot when you go to scale that up.

Great contribution of the unknown limited ressources cannot expand, probably proud of you there, despite insanity where it's a loss of neuron most likely , the answer 16 seem to be correct !

It's incredibly frustrating to figure out how to do something novel like this.
iko_red_belts.png

Great demonstration to explain the popularity of the mods that makes quality easier, it's obvious that there were quite the stuggle there

[coffee-factorio]

Well, why would try I Gleba with it's 15000 HP enemies instead of the big mining drill. Particularly if you're worried about UPS. Because every chunk is going to be interacting with spores. So if you push it far enough, you're bound to be in a tight spot when you go to scale that up.

If you bulk recycle plastic, one orchard of operating yumako gives you about six items a minute. Which is comparable to a ~22% BMD outputting coal at 6 ips to see a return at 4 ipm, the difference is that a BMD can be scaled with mining productivity research alone and it doesn't impose the hidden cost of a rocket launch in resources to bring anything to a lab which will give you a 4x total bonus. That gives the mega baser a rate of return that might overcome the extra function calls to a PRNG compared to just running normal science. Or not. The previous 40 minutes of the video is the user eliminating noise from his setup because he saw variance that convinced him to be cautious. Impressive he got uncommon to run close to normal.

Droid is doing something functionally different by going for a 6x rate. I just respect him for doing it period.

You punch legendary output up to >20 ipm at Gleba, using advanced circuits. But the scales poorly compared to grenades or throwing ~22% plastic it through a max quality cryoplant. Both of which give you a similar result at the expense of a build that requires you to scale horizontally.

Gave a picture of LDS Cast to back up why you wouldn't want to do that. Would picture rates of operation and blueprints you could run independently be valuable for your records? I can put them here or send them in DM's. I understand you got flak for two weeks while I was taking a break. At this point if I have a serious discussion of technique the peanut gallery is actively accusing me of being psychotic, so I get it.

Doing it for copper and iron is going to put you in a similar situation where, your operation is based on getting 24.8% on fruit. 24.8% on bioflux. And then hoping you can match rates on spoiling bacteria once you kick the process off with a percentile chance of a bacteria. You then have to defend that with a gunline, run a lot of towers, and then send it all back to Nauvis on a rocket and space platform. And every time I say "percentile chance" or "%", a function call has to be directed to a recipe that invokes the PRNG.

You're in a similar situation where if you're on the way to something I respect you. If you say "I'm doing this because I want a challenge" I respect you. If you say "did you try it"; I did, and I can show the result on a small scale which is going to help you consider your life choices.

If a problem exists with a balance discussion being derailed by someone encouraging their buddy to mix up, "ressource", a french word with an English word "resource" to insult someone. That isn't a mix up that occurs at 5pm when someone comes home from a work shift.

Great contribution of the unknown limited ressources cannot expand, probably proud of you there, despite insanity where it's a loss of neuron most likely , the answer 16 seem to be correct !

Regardless of the personal issue I have with mmmPI.

This is the discussion on the actual rules .

This is referenced in the discussion of netiquette which you are violating on several levels. It isn't simply someone excited about the game posting production graphs that show what the game is capable of. You're contributing to an issue. You'll notice intentionally garbled and bigoted language is discouraged.

That's just what i'm waiting for btw !

A benchmark would create several questions of validity.

And the operation control resort to unecessary boolean complexity, briliant mind think fairwell forward to the next step !

Yes and no you can switch in the middle to drive the discussion with more things 24 is a good value in there and you may may i believe not so

sounds like you are doing word shuffling, soon you'll reach coffe's quality of argumentation, i suggest you make the random bunch of words longer x)

I mean, if it isn't okay for someone to mix up any words, regardless of circumstances. It's beyond not okay for two healthy adult friends to do it intentionally. You could at least have bothered to spell my name right PI. The tie breaker would be if two people did it constantly to bully users, in particular or in general.

[Shulmeister]

I mean, if it isn't okay for someone to mix up any words, regardless of circumstances. It's beyond not okay for two healthy adult friends to do it intentionally. You could at least have bothered to spell my name right PI. The tie breaker would be if two people did it constantly to bully users, in particular or in general.

I think 250*4 is around similar value of the property for plastic and unaware of the surrounding, it appears simplistic, even useless or purposeful

[coffee-factorio]

I mean, if it isn't okay for someone to mix up any words, regardless of circumstances. It's beyond not okay for two healthy adult friends to do it intentionally. You could at least have bothered to spell my name right PI. The tie breaker would be if two people did it constantly to bully users, in particular or in general.

I think 250*4 is around similar value of the property for plastic and unaware of the surrounding, it appears simplistic, even useless or purposeful

Excuse me. The picture mmmPI produced shows that all the stack inserters are set to filter legendary items into a cargo wagon. It's rate of movement is 0 ips.
Edit: I am so pissed, I missed the less than legendary symbol.

Icons don't match game.

up to mning prod 250.png (674.58 KiB) Viewed 140 times

An alternate configuration it looks like this. Attached is a blueprint so the curious may determine the rate. You may also simply place a mining car on a train track. And judge for yourself.

Try and see if it will work.

actual_filter_inserter_icons.png (906.53 KiB) Viewed 140 times

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Copy blueprint

Regardless of whether it will work or not. 6 items per second * 40 = 240 ips, the size of a turbo belt. 4 items per minute times 40 = 160 items per minute.
The rate of a mine at research 250 is 133 ips. It produces 65-70 items per minute, and if I had to guess the discrepancy here would disappear if I used the actual items produced in an hour instead of the rounded value of the production graph.

[Shulmeister]

Excuse me. The picture mmmPI produced shows that all the stack inserters are set to filter legendary items into a cargo wagon. It's rate of movement is 0 ips.
Edit: I am so pissed, I missed the less than legendary symbol.

Not sure why you would say that to me, but as usual it's wrong and easy to demonstrate :

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Copy blueprint

[coffee-factorio]

Since I am rather upset I made sure to retest this.

Jam time is sub 10 minutes at 250 research. At 240 research it's about 30 minutes.

retest.png (1.09 MiB) Viewed 120 times

Addition of a long handed inserter set to filter out legendary items proved to irrelevant, since at a rate of return of 1 in 4000 the cargo wagon's inventory will be overwhelmed by lower quality parts feeding in from a drill.

retest2.png (660 KiB) Viewed 120 times

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Copy blueprint

[Shulmeister]

Since I am rather upset I made sure to retest this.
Jam time is sub 10 minutes at 250 research. At 240 research it's about 30 minutes.

It seems you have a problem with mmmPI, and you try hard to contradict the poor boy with some random non-sense but on this particular case it was clearly explained when the picture was posted, you should probably try to find someone else to interact with x)

It works unless the wagon clogs, which doesn't happen before mining productivity 200 + !! Then it's time to change the module in the beacon for a slower one.

[coffee-factorio]

No, it starts to happen at mining productivity 238 on my machine.

At like 220 it keeps up, and that creates an issue because the text that mmmPI is giving doesn't match the text on his picture.

Which puts you guys in a bad spot because you're claiming numbers that are all over the place, I mean. If a random generator is configured differently the rate might change and while you can show it doesn't jam at low rates, it doesn't necessarily work in all cases. Which can lead to misunderstandings particularly if someone is repeatedly provoked.