Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

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macdjord
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Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by macdjord »

Maximum Botless SPM
TL;DR: Without using bots, the maximum possible SPM, before Lab Productivity research, is somewhere between 'slightly less than 2154.5k' and 'slightly less than 1139.8k' normal packs of each type per minute.

So, this is an exercise in theorycrafting, looking at what the maximum possible SPM is if you are not allowed to use logistics bots.

First, the bottleneck: the Cargo Landing Pad. The landing pad is the only way to get items down to the surface from orbit, you can only have one per planet, and, without bots, the only way to get those items out of the pad and into the rest of the factory is inserters. This is the only fundamental bottleneck; every other potential limit can, at least in theory, be worked around by just building more.
Nauvis
Starting with Nauvis:
  • The landing pad is an 8x8 building, meaning there's room for 32 inserters taking items from it. However, for high throughput, you need a large number of cargo bays to allow multiple pods to land simultaneously; one of these cargo bays needs to connect to the landing pad, which will block 2 of the grids where you would otherwise put inserters. So we're limited to 30 inserters.
  • The maximum container-to-container throughput of a fully-upgraded legendary stack inserter is 120 items/second. Of course, just moving items from the landing pad to a chest doesn't help: we need to get them out onto belts, and the container-to-belt throughput is much lower; the wiki doesn't have container-to-belt throughput for Space Age inserters, but by looking at the data available, I was able to determine that the container-to-blue-belt throughput of a fully-upgraded legendary stack inserter would be 64 items/second, and the container-to-green-belt throughput could be as high as 80i/s. However, what we can do is have a chain of inserters moving items from the landing pad and then through a series of chests at 120i/s, and then two inserters moving items from the last chest to belts; by making each chain one side of the landing pad a different length, we can avoid collisions.
  • That lets us import a total of 3600i/s to the surface. For the moment, we'll assume all of those are science packs. There are 6 types of science pack which cannot be made on Nauvis, so that's 600/s of each, or 36k SPM.
  • However, rather than importing common science packs, we can import legendary ones, which have 6 times the science value per pack.
  • And we can use biolabs, which inherently produce double the research per pack, and fill each one with 4 legendary Productivity Module 3s, for an additional +100% productivity.
All told, that gives us an effective SPM from Nauvis of 864k
Vulcanus, Gleba, and Fulgora
All these worlds work the same as Nauvis, with two exceptions:
  • Each of these worlds produces one of the science packs Nauvis needs to import, so they only have to import 5 types of packs instead of 6
  • However, they cannot use biolabs, so instead of that 4-fold multiplier, they only get the benefit of the +50% bonus from a regular lab with 2 legendary Productivity Module 3s
All told, that gives us an effective SPM from these worlds of 388.8k each, or 1166.4k between the three of them
Aquilo
Aquilo presents some major challenges:
  • Because of the need to defrost the inserters with heat pipes, we can only fit 6 of them per side instead of 8. Additionally, the cargo bay blocks 3 spots: the two it occupies, plus one where, due to the presence of the bay, no heat pipe can get close enough. Thus we only have 21 stack inserters instead of 30.
    • However, we can improve that a little by placing a burner inserter in the space next to the cargo bay, since burner devices are immune to freezing. The throughput of a fully-upgraded legendary burner inserter is only 8i/s, but that's better than nothing! (The burner inserter also loses a little bit of throughput due to the need to occasionally feed itself fuel, but if we use a long-burning fuel like nuclear fuel, the time loss is negligible.)
  • Worse, while Aquilo can locally produce one of the science packs that Nauvis imports, the lack of local resources means that it needs to import all 6 of the basic science packs that other worlds all make locally, bringing the number of imported science pack types up to 11.
  • Finally, the lack of biolabs affects here, too.
All told, that gives us an effective SPM from Aquilo of just 124.1k
Minor Factors
There are several minor factors that slightly reduce the SPM values calculated above, but are negligible overall:
  • If we want to use foundries on any world but Vulcanus, we need to ship calcite down from space. However, the amount of calcite needed for even a massive base is fairly small, and if necessary this can be avoided entirely by just not using foundries for metal production on other worlds.
  • If we want to use fusion power, we will need to deliver to Aquilo the holmium required to produce the fusion power cells, and then, if using them on other worlds, deliver those cells to the surface again. However, fusion cells are very efficient, so the amount of resources required is miniscule.
  • The cryogenic science packs created on Aquilo require lithium plates, which in turn require lithium, which in turn require holmium. However, when taking into account the efficiencies possible in each step of this process, the ratio is 67.5 packs to 1 holmium plate delivered, so, again, negligible.
  • Agricultural science packs lose their science value as they spoil, meaning more of them will have to be delivered to each other world than will be required of the other science packs. This, too, is negligible; a well-designed Gleba base will produce packs with an initial freshness of nearly 100%, and legendary agricultural science packs have a spoil time of 2.5h so they should lose very little freshness during transport.
The Problem: Promethium Science Upcycling
Producing promethium science packs requires 3 ingredients: promethium asteroid chunks, quantum processors, and biter eggs. Promethium asteroid chunks are collected in space, so they are not an issue. Quantum processors can be produced in space, so again not an issue; it does require lithium plates (which requires more holmium shipped to Aquilo) and fluoroketone (which must be barreled for transport, requiring empty barrels) but the ratios, once multiple steps with productivity bonuses are factored in, are so large as to be negligible.

Biter eggs, however, present a problem. They must be produced on Nauvis, using captive biter spawners, which must be fed bioflux delivered from Gleba. Accounting for all productivity bonuses, the ratio is 90 promethium science packs per bioflux, a ratio which would be negligible... except we have so far assumed legendary promethium science packs, which require legendary biter eggs. And unlike the holmium shipped to Aquilo to make cryogenic science and lithium plates, which can be upcycled on Fulgora before being shipped, the only way to make high-quality biter eggs is to upcycle the eggs themselves (or a product made from them); high-quality bioflux does not produce higher-quality or greater numbers of eggs. Upcycling is lossy, meaning the ratio of promethium science packs per bioflux goes down, and since I don't know what the most efficient upcycling setup for biter eggs is, nor just how lossy it is, I cannot calculate the final ratio.

It might well be that it is more efficient to not use legendary promethium science packs at all, instead accepting a lower quality there in order to reduce the amount of bioflux which must be imported to Nauvis to maintain egg production. In the worst case, if we assume normal quality promethium science packs (and thus the negligible 1:90 delivery rate for bioflux), the effective SPM drops to 471.2k for Nauvis, 194.4k for each of Vulcanus, Gleba, and Fulgora, and 85.3k for Aquilo.
Conclusion
The maximum SPM possible without bots is at most 2154.5k and at least 1139.8k (minus a couple percent in both cases for the minor factors I didn't account for explicitly).
TurtleZ
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by TurtleZ »

Cool analysis! The only factor I can spot that you're missing is rocket part ingredients import to Aquilo, but I doubt they'd make much of a difference at 300% productivity.

I think the theoretical maximum botless SPM is actually much higher if you put labs on your space platforms. In this case your only limiting factors are imports to Aquilo, and bioflux import to Nauvis for biter egg production.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by crimsonarmy »

I did some quick calculations and once you include research productivity things get crazy.
macdjord
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by macdjord »

TurtleZ wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 8:32 am Cool analysis! The only factor I can spot that you're missing is rocket part ingredients import to Aquilo, but I doubt they'd make much of a difference at 300% productivity.

I think the theoretical maximum botless SPM is actually much higher if you put labs on your space platforms. In this case your only limiting factors are imports to Aquilo, and bioflux import to Nauvis for biter egg production.
Ah, yeah, I missed rocket parts to Aquillo. But it only costs 100 items to launch 1000 science packs (you can make the fuel locally), and you get a 2x bonus from using Prod3s, and then the lab productivity and legendary science bonus on top of that. So I'd say it's fair to treat that as negligible.

As for labs on platforms... I could have sworn you couldn't build labs in space? If you can, then yeah, the limit becomes much, much bigger. Bioflux for eggs would then be the limiting factor, and since you could simply not research anything on Nauvis itself, you can use the whole 3600i/s for it.

crimsonarmy wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 4:38 pm I did some quick calculations and once you include research productivity things get crazy.
Since lab productivity is unlimited, there's no limit at all if you include it.
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MeduSalem
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by MeduSalem »

macdjord wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:10 am Since lab productivity is unlimited, there's no limit at all if you include it.
While hypothetically there would be no limit, practically there still is time as a limit. (time purely from research cost increase, not performance decrease). If it becomes so expensive and takes so much time to unlock the next level that it is not worth it anymore you still hit a practical ceiling.

At that point it is meta-meta discussion... where is the point you call it a day? How much time is one willing to put into unlocking the next level with the current possible throughput? What is the target overall?

But as said, there sure is also the question of performance. For example looking at some of the throughput numbers above, I know my computer would die long before being able to occupy all cargo landing pads, so there is not even a question for me. But that said, I sure saw some of the YT vids with people doing 4 million SPM. xD
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by SaboteurKiev »

Code: Select all

"Of course, just moving items from the landing pad to a chest doesn't help: we need to get them out onto belts"
Actually you can use legendary Stack inserters to unload from landing pad to Cargo wagon or to the Rocket silo, and then legendary Stack inserters to green belts, so you will have more then 30 places for loading belts.

So the real limit of foreign planet science pack will be 30 legendary stack inserter chest-to-chest speed.
120 items/sec * 30

If you are crazy man, you can build also standard labs on all other planets and import science pack on other planets, so you will have 5 landing pads,
120 items/sec * 30 * 5.
But of course biolabs only on navius.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by SaboteurKiev »

MeduSalem wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:38 pm I sure saw some of the YT vids with people doing 4 million SPM. xD
SPM is not a very stable indicator. In the same setup you can increase or decrease it twice depending on researching technology which required 30/60 or 120 time. Also logistic of gleba and prometheus science requires some additional moments.

So in this topic question is about SCCM (science pack per minute), and the bottleneck - science packs which should be imported from space and unload from cargo pad.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by h.q.droid »

Yes you can build labs in space, so I think the bottleneck is shipping holmium to Aquillo. You need slightly more of that than rocket mats at max productivity (which are more efficiently shipped in as iron / copper ore / coal). The promethium science per bioflux ratio should be higher than Aquillo science per legendary holmium.

EDIT: From a pure hub inserter bandwidth POV, it's better to ship capture capsules to Nauvis and legendary EM plants + common exoskeleton to Aquillo, which can be recycled for much more stuff per inserter-stack.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by macdjord »

SaboteurKiev wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 5:08 pm

Code: Select all

"Of course, just moving items from the landing pad to a chest doesn't help: we need to get them out onto belts"
Actually you can use legendary Stack inserters to unload from landing pad to Cargo wagon or to the Rocket silo, and then legendary Stack inserters to green belts, so you will have more then 30 places for loading belts.

So the real limit of foreign planet science pack will be 30 legendary stack inserter chest-to-chest speed.
120 items/sec * 30

If you are crazy man, you can build also standard labs on all other planets and import science pack on other planets, so you will have 5 landing pads,
120 items/sec * 30 * 5.
But of course biolabs only on navius.
I accounted for both of those in the original post. (I assumed legendary stack inserters moving 120i/s from pad to chest, and then two inserters moving items from that chest to belts, and I accounted for labs on every planet - but not in space, which I hadn't realized was an option.)

You also missed that you can't have 30 inserters next to you landing pad on Aquilo, since you need heat pipes to keep them from freezing.

h.q.droid wrote: Sat Aug 09, 2025 4:01 pm Yes you can build labs in space, so I think the bottleneck is shipping holmium to Aquillo. You need slightly more of that than rocket mats at max productivity (which are more efficiently shipped in as iron / copper ore / coal). The promethium science per bioflux ratio should be higher than Aquillo science per legendary holmium.

EDIT: From a pure hub inserter bandwidth POV, it's better to ship capture capsules to Nauvis and legendary EM plants + common exoskeleton to Aquillo, which can be recycled for much more stuff per inserter-stack.
I'm pretty sure the bottleneck will be the bioflux, not the holmium. Assuming maximum productivity everywhere, the ratio is 1 holmium plate to 67.5 cryogenic science packs, while 1 bioflux makes 90 promethium science packs. However, you can upcycle your holmium plates to legendary on Fulgora, and then deliver that to make legendary cryogenic science packs directly. You cannot do the same with bioflux; legendary bioflux spoils slower, but it doesn't make higher-quality biter eggs nor does it make more eggs per unit of bioflux. AFAIK, there is no way to make legendary biter eggs except by upcycling the eggs themselves or upcycling some product made from the eggs.

Additionally, your suggestion of shipping capture bot rockets and EM plants tilts things even more in favour of bioflux as the bottleneck. Each capture bot rocket requires 20 bioflux, meaning recycling it returns 5 bioflux, so that's a 5-fold increase in throughput. EM plants, on the other hand, take 150 holmium plates, which can be recycled to recover 37.5 plates, i.e. a 37.5-fold increase in throughput. That alone is enough to make bioflux the bottleneck. And if you shipped mech armour (200 plates to make, 50 plates recycled) that is an even bigger advantage.
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by computeraddict »

macdjord wrote: Mon Aug 11, 2025 1:50 am You also missed that you can't have 30 inserters next to you landing pad on Aquilo, since you need heat pipes to keep them from freezing.
Could you put cars/tanks on top of heat pipes and have the inserters feed them, though?
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Re: Theorycrafting: Maximum Possible SPM Without Bots

Post by h.q.droid »

macdjord wrote: Mon Aug 11, 2025 1:50 am I'm pretty sure the bottleneck will be the bioflux, not the holmium. Assuming maximum productivity everywhere, the ratio is 1 holmium plate to 67.5 cryogenic science packs, while 1 bioflux makes 90 promethium science packs. However, you can upcycle your holmium plates to legendary on Fulgora, and then deliver that to make legendary cryogenic science packs directly. You cannot do the same with bioflux; legendary bioflux spoils slower, but it doesn't make higher-quality biter eggs nor does it make more eggs per unit of bioflux. AFAIK, there is no way to make legendary biter eggs except by upcycling the eggs themselves or upcycling some product made from the eggs.

Additionally, your suggestion of shipping capture bot rockets and EM plants tilts things even more in favour of bioflux as the bottleneck. Each capture bot rocket requires 20 bioflux, meaning recycling it returns 5 bioflux, so that's a 5-fold increase in throughput. EM plants, on the other hand, take 150 holmium plates, which can be recycled to recover 37.5 plates, i.e. a 37.5-fold increase in throughput. That alone is enough to make bioflux the bottleneck. And if you shipped mech armour (200 plates to make, 50 plates recycled) that is an even bigger advantage.
Nice analysis!

I remember legendary biter nests producing more eggs per bioflux, so it should be 1 bioflux per 225 promethium, compared to 1 legendary holmium per 405 effective cryogenic. Stack inserter is limited by stack size so the non-stacking mech armour doesn't make sense as each swing can only take one. And I think each swing can take at most 10 capture bots.

Considering the tank-on-top-of-heatpipe solution. Yes the bottleneck will be bioflux.
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