Legendary Yumako & Jelly Nut Seeds should grow legendary plants

[coffee-factorio]

<further descriptions>

The thought is this:
1) Script out a simulation (in javascript or something) that will allow me to adjust starting values (such as the probabilities of each quality of tree havesting into each quality of fruit, the size of the orchard, the number of processors mashing each quality of fruit, etc...), and that will then make graphs of how the current available supply of fruit, mash, and seeds of each quality will change over time.
2) Play with the numbers a bit, make several graphs to show what the production cycle in-game would actually look like with various probabilities, and post the results here.

The next step in such a project would be to take the settings from the most balanced and playable looking graph, and use them to make a mod that actually uses this cascading-multi-quality-harvest suggestion. I have a feeling that I could get something that would turn out pretty good.

If nothing else, it would show clearly and exactly how the balance of quality supply changes as those probabilities are adjusted, and allow fine tuning of the difficulty of producing quality goods on Gleba. No matter how great or small a dev wanted the adjustment to be. As opposed to the current situation where that balance feels kind of all-or-nothing (at least in regards to a quality-tree-from-quality-seed mechanic).

Well, I would encourage this curiosity. Here's some interesting reading: https://dfamonteiro.com/posts/.
In addition: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... id=0#gid=0 all of Konage's stuff, they've done some work on the subject.

The thing is the work is on the production steps for the machines. I haven't heard much more of it, what initially conditioning a system does to an operation. When I've tried to work this with just intuition and not direct simulations in the map editor or benefiting from other's mathematical rigor though, I've made some foolish mistakes. Quality has a way of making you look in 5 directions at once, so it's very good at putting you in situations where you can deceive yourself. If you go for a script route make sure you can match these guy's numbers.

[Shulmeister]

It's still advocating for a system that solve literally 0 problems.

While I wouldn't say zero problems, now that I look back at the recent proposals it has become quite a complicated system to partially solve a small problem.

I think my initial motivation to support this idea came from wanting a way to upgrade the quality of the initial ingredients everywhere and make quality items always have a use.

To explain why this shouldn't be changed:
1. Planet specific quality items do not have an efficient way to become legendary; you just need to throw capacity at it. This makes developing large industry on a planet that you want the legendary resource from needed to get it in large quantities.
2. Legendary bioflux is one of the most powerful resources in the game. Making it easier to get in large quantities, even if only slightly, is a problem.
3. The play pattern this would make is minimal depth for the complexity (complicated but not very interesting) due to how late into the game this comes up. If you want to play around with juggling different qualities try the Maraxsis mod which integrates this play pattern far better than it would here.

I hope this serves to explain simply why this suggestion is counterproductive.

Don't get me wrong, i wish quality seeds would serve a purpose instead of being a risk. Currently if you try to do quality on Gleba by using quality module in the processing of fruits, you will end up with quality seed. If you don't plant them, you run the risk of not having enough regular seed. But if you plant them all you will overflow with seeds, so that's a "challenge" that i feel make sense. It's not imposed on players that do not try quality, but it's like a "trap" or a "side-obstacle", it's not super hard to deal with once you get it, but it creates a "eureka" moment, when you realize it. I feel it's good gameplay.

Now from the perspective of someone who value quality seeds for plant that i consume later in real life, i believe something could be done in game for the legendary seeds, but to me it's more in the realm of suggestions, or even "mods" because that's kind of a "me" thing.

When regarding stricly balancing i feel that Gleba is already the planet players complain/struggle the most with; and any change to the game that would introduce "more complexity" in Gleba would probably be "badly received". Even worse if the aim is only to make "easier" something "reserved for those that wants to tackle hard problems". That would be detrimental to the gameplay value imo.

I'm still interested in proposition that would make quality seed "valuable", i feel the speed of growth for trees would work well because there's less drawbacks i can see, it forces player to find a way to "stop" their agricultural tower if they haven't already, that's it. I don't think it's a big deal because that can be done (also) without circuits, just with a lane backing up. So i feel for "balancing" it would be the more on point from those i read so far.

If you think you do need an easier way to scale your legendary production on Gleba and you propose making the game more complicated for those who have trouble already while acting superior you're a real idiot to me. You are the one who actually struggle in the game ( to have quality ) and thus most likely one for which a more complicated system wouldn't be a good idea in the first place.

Please refrain from personnal attacks, keeps them in private message like i told you last time i felt you were only trolling

No-one need easier scaling of legendary production on Gleba because it makes no sense.

I feel like some players could use and easier way into quality or gleba or both regarding balancing. And i feel like quality on Gleba make sense, it's infinite ressources, and you don't always need the science.

But I don't feel like "easy scaling" would be good on Gleba BECAUSE it's infinite ressources. Any build that "works" can be copy pasted around some fertile land, that's like the seablock end game, where some blueprints are like "infinity chest but bigger" / with a little terrain restriction easily overcome with bots.

That's the only nuances i would add to your reformulation

Thank you, i have sent personnal attack in private as required.

I share the reasonning that the proposition makes little sense for the reasons explained

[Rancara]

Thank you, i have sent personnal attack in private as required.

Lol. Why bother? He doesn't show that courtesy. Neither does he bother keeping his criticism constructive or even rational. He's just a troll who clearly can't stand the thought of "losing" an argument. Just ignore him. It's what I do now.

<various futile attempts to reason with mmmPI, which only received personal attacks in response>

Same to you, @coffee-factorio. You should probably stop trying to argue or reason with him, and just ignore. At least until he starts actually trying to contribute to the discussion (don't hold your breath for that though). I've even considered contacting a moderator to request that he be banned from the thread so we don't have to deal with his shit anymore, but getting mods involved is usually a bad idea in general when on internet forums. So... whatever.

[Shulmeister]

Thank you, i have sent personnal attack in private as required.

Lol. Why bother? He doesn't show that courtesy. Neither does he bother keeping his criticism constructive or even rational. He's just a troll who clearly can't stand the thought of "losing" an argument. Just ignore him. It's what I do now.

I see nothing related to this thread here, only a person with no sense of humour, sad.

[coffee-factorio]

<various futile attempts to reason with mmmPI, which only received personal attacks in response>

Same to you, @coffee-factorio. You should probably stop trying to argue or reason with him, and just ignore. At least until he starts actually trying to contribute to the discussion (don't hold your breath for that though). I've even considered contacting a moderator to request that he be banned from the thread so we don't have to deal with his shit anymore, but getting mods involved is usually a bad idea in general when on internet forums. So... whatever.

Sorry, the thing is. mmmPI said that simply growing fruit faster would be anything other than adding a productivity bonus to the orchards. And it simply is a productivity bonus; because having some crops grow faster means you ultimately get more fruit.

It is also one with a mechanical issue - debates over what a fair rate of growth on individual quality tiers would be. Granted, he decided not to respond to my critique and that's his right.

But the strategy he proposed is not any more sound than the ones being discussed. While I don't have to respond to his personal attacks, I do have to show the difficulty involved with coming up with a balanced orchard.

That's a conversation I showed up to have, and it relates to the idea that seeds on Gleba should have a function other than growing normal plants.

I see nothing related to this thread here, only a person with no sense of humour, sad.

Rancara proposed writing a script that would give you numbers. If you had numbers, you'd just know when someone was trying to make "seeds" more interesting or looking for a handout. If you had incorrect numbers from 'em; then you'd also have a basis to argue whether or not they lacked skill.

Who exactly lacks a sense of humor here? Because without a number to measure production against, we can throw ideas at a board and claim anything is balanced. You also have to put ideas at risk to contribute a conversation and... regardless of whether or not I think you're correct.

Do you thing the proper balancing for seeds is to simply leave it as is? And do you have much more to add beyond that?

[mmmPI]

Neither does he bother keeping his criticism constructive or even rational. He's just a troll who clearly can't stand the thought of "losing" an argument. Just ignore him. It's what I do now.

You can ignore contradiction and keep repeating the same thing like a parrot, but i'm not sure that's a good advice to give because that prevent new ideas from entering to your brain. Here's one you keep ignoring for some reason :

I'm still interested in proposition that would make quality seed "valuable", i feel the speed of growth for trees would work well because there's less drawbacks i can see, it forces player to find a way to "stop" their agricultural tower if they haven't already, that's it. I don't think it's a big deal because that can be done (also) without circuits, just with a lane backing up. So i feel for "balancing" it would be the more on point from those i read so far.

Thank you, i have sent personnal attack in private as required.

Last time you sent me a message that only contained "personnal attacks", literally those two words, and it was funny, but this time i didn't received anything, so maybe someone else did ? x)

[mmmPI]

Sorry, the thing is. mmmPI said that simply growing fruit faster would be anything other than adding a productivity bonus to the orchards. And it simply is a productivity bonus; because having some crops grow faster means you ultimately get more fruit.

No your analysis is wrong, productivity increase the number of fruit per seed, not speed of growth.

[coffee-factorio]

Sorry, the thing is. mmmPI said that simply growing fruit faster would be anything other than adding a productivity bonus to the orchards. And it simply is a productivity bonus; because having some crops grow faster means you ultimately get more fruit.

No your analysis is wrong, productivity increase the number of fruit per seed, not speed of growth.

Up to a quarter of your plants produce seeds early.

Seeds grow for five minutes. If I have say, a 4:59 seed. I can rotate in another 4:59 seed before the rest of the orchard harvests. And at that point it's kind of like filling up the productivity bar but through a ritual instead of the game. Eventually I'll get 300 free seconds out of the deal; and that will be perceived as a 1 + 1/300 bonus to productivity from that orchard.

Of course it's funny, because you also have to burn nutrients in the biolabs to support this. So it's a physical metaphor of productivity, but in it's rather more benign sense.

It's a rather beautiful metaphor for it thank you.

[mmmPI]

Sorry, the thing is. mmmPI said that simply growing fruit faster would be anything other than adding a productivity bonus to the orchards. And it simply is a productivity bonus; because having some crops grow faster means you ultimately get more fruit.

No your analysis is wrong, productivity increase the number of fruit per seed, not speed of growth.

Of course it's funny, because you also have to burn nutrients in the biolabs to support this. So it's a physical metaphor of productivity, but in it's rather more benign sense.

No it's just wrong making the seeds grow faster when they have higher quality is nothing like a productivity bonus on the agricultural tower which would change the ratio of things.

[Shulmeister]

then you'd also have a basis to argue whether or not they lacked skill.

I'm not the one saying it !

It's a rather beautiful metaphor for it thank you.

It's wrong though, making seed grow faster when they have higher quality is similar to speed bonus on the towers, not productivity. You just get the same result faster, not a different result. Not more fruits or more seeds , like you would with a productivity module.