Midterm goal

[slpwnd]

Allright, with 0.5.1 (almost) out it was time to start planning the next release. The main topic was supposed to be the multiplayer. So we sat down and started thinking about what exactly needs to be done and how long it will take. We went from the original estimate of 1 developer for 1 month worh of work to 2 people for 2 monts worth of work. That is getting rather risky.

The thing is that in the Indiegogo campaign we have announced the expected date for the game to be finished in summer of 2013. Even though we have done a lot of work the date proved to be unrealistic. Some things took us longer than expected and we also did things that were not on the original list. Another thing is that we came to conclusion that more of a continuous style of release model (ala Minecraft) would be more suitable for Factorio.

So here is a new midterm goal. We are aiming to have a more coherent version of the game by the end of summer. That would include mainly:
- more consistent looks
- better combat mechanics
- more challenging enemies
- additional content
- overall polishing

Most of these goals overlap with things from the Indiegogo. We decided to prioritize these things because we believe these are needed before we can try to reach wider acceptance of the game. At the moment we are doing like zero marketing and focusing solely on the development. However the funds from the Indiegogo and the alpha preorders are running out. We have something over two monts before we should start getting worried. That should be enough time to get things from the list above done and start looking into spreading the game. By that we mean mainly going to Steam Greenlight. We might actually start the Greenlight campaign sooner however we will need a new trailer and screenshots for that for sure.

So this is the overview of a mid term situation with Factorio. The result is that the multiplayer will have to wait. It is just too big of a risk now. We better have a reasonably finished singleplayer than a half finished multiplayer. If we manage to spread Factorio to the wider audience then we will have time and resources to do the multiplayer properly.

Let us know what you think.

[ssilk]

I think, that finishing singleplayer is better, than going into multiplayer.
The game has in my eyes a really great potential. I'm sure, the game will find many friends but when you now implement multiplayer, you cannot make big changes anymore and I feel, that this is eventually needed, because I think it has a very high learning curve and a high frustration-level. This can be better fixed, in the singleplayer.

[Narnach]

This sounds good to me. A great single player game is better than a so-so multiplayer game.

Multiplayer was a stretch goal instead of a core feature of the original Indiegogo offer, so delaying it in favor of delivering more of the core features sooner matches that as well. Core game > stretch goals.

[Hi-Torque]

Great! I like this situation much better. My preference is always the Single Player and core over Multiplayer.

Its also worth noting that I am well satisfied with the game (although obviously wanting more) and have certainly gotten my monies worth. Can not tell you guys enough, excellent work!

[MF-]

Great! I like this situation much better. My preference is always the Single Player and core over Multiplayer.

Its also worth noting that I am well satisfied with the game (although obviously wanting more) and have certainly gotten my monies worth. Can not tell you guys enough, excellent work!

+1 for you. Just awesome.
Right now I am missing only two little bits and better enemies.
( "Controlling trains from circuit network" and "way to go solar, but with a coal failsafe" )

[SilverWarior]

Guys I compleetly agree with your decision to postpone Multiplayer. As a game developer myself I know how much work needs to be put in to do it.
And I also know that before doing it you should make sure that you have absolutely stable game core othervise you will run in a lot of troubles.
If you don't have stable game and it crashes for some reason when someone is playing singleplayer it is only one person whose gameplay has been f*****. But if sich bug ocurs in multiplayer than you f**** the game for all the players.

So go ahead and make awsome single player game first and only then think about multiplayer.
You do ralize that there is actually not many good singleplayer games outthere?

[kovarex]

I'm glad that you understand.

[RawCode]

mp\coop is very valueble feature but without pvp and with currently extremely limited gameplay it will be obsolete, there is nothing to do, just mindless grinding of tech packs, no tactical or strategic weapons, no real advancement in tech.

it's very smart to postnote MP and focus on actual gameplay.

[Wazzebu]

No problem for me.

[gr0mpel]

sounds ok to me.

factorio has a very good foundation right now. but there are still a few things missing in order to create a better gameplay and better long term motivation.
so its reasonable to concentrate on that before starting such a big project like multiplayer!

so far i love this game and i have to agree to Hi-Torque . totally worth the money. havnt had this experience in a while...

[Nemoder]

If funds weren't the main issue I would say stick with multiplayer first as it tends to bring in more players in the long run and makes the gameplay better than trying to tack it on later. I don't think a game like minecraft would be the hit it is if it didn't have multiplayer built into it early on. But you're right that it's a risk and it would certainly slow down development at this stage. I wont be too disappointed to see single player polished up nicely instead though.

[SilverWarior]

If funds weren't the main issue I would say stick with multiplayer first as it tends to bring in more players in the long run and makes the gameplay better than trying to tack it on later.

I would definitly disagree with you on that.

I don't think a game like minecraft would be the hit it is if it didn't have multiplayer built into it early on.

Do you know that first versions of Minecraft had no multiplayer whatsoever? And yet Minecraft became quite a boom even at that time. Sure multiplayer made it even more popular.


There are lots of singleplayer games which are quite popular:
Remember Sim City or maybe Sim City 2000? Back in the days those were the most popular City Simulation games and they had no multiplayer capabilities. And yet their popularity resulted in starting of whole Sim City series. Only for the latest Sim City you could say it has some sort of multiplayer?
Have you ever heard about Dwarf Fortress? The game also doesn't support multiplayer and yet it is extreemly popular.

Have you heard about Projekt-W Phase 2 http://www.indiedb.com/games/projekt-w-phase-2 This is the game that has been developed by a friend of mine.
The game was oficially realeased on 20th of October 2012 but has only been aded to IndieDB and Desura aproximately two weaks ago. And yet it is currently ranked 7th on IndieDB while Minecraft is ranked 5th. And no Pproject-W doesn't offer any multiplayer capability.

So you see Multiplayer is not what is important for your game to become popular but the actuall game content is.

[zlosynus]

I want to all add my point of view here.

It is true that multiplayer takes quite some time to develop, but I believe the time is worth that (for me certainly much more important than graphics). It is obvious that quite a lot of people on this forums care mostly about singleplayer because, well, they play Factorio now and there is only singleplayer now (mostly free play anyway). It is hard to guess how many new people would get to the game because of multiplayer (you can play cooperative with friends, make servers, ...). There are certainly types of people who like it.

Concerning mid term goal, I am missing two important things there:

(x) Some map (important at least for me). I would like to see the world surrounding my factory and it is very hard. Even some simple support would help.
(x) Speed Improvement. I would say that this is absolutely key because currently is the game unplayable with a larger factory (I have like 15 fps or less there). It seems to me the game is getting much slower after every release. And since the game graphics looks like 10-15 years old, player won't be very understanding of this (yes, I know, you have all the simulation in the back, but players don't see that). So at least making the game multithreading and looking at it in profiler on some big factory might be helpful.

[Hi-Torque]

Hello,

I could not agree more with SilverWarior, I could not care less about MP. I think Factorio may perhaps one day positively excel on servers with persistent worlds etc. But for me the unique problem solving and relative glacial pace of the game suite SP quite wonderfully. I have seen many comparisons to TTD and IG but really this game reminds me most of the Anno series by Sunflower. The latest version, Anno 2070 supports (a much hyped) MP but most users seem quite content with the SP. 30 to 40 hour MP games are difficult to manage and coordinate, etc. I sometimes do not understand the fashion today to incorporate MP and "Social Networking" into every game produced. Tedious.

Please forgive this offtopic: But it is somewhat on subject. I realize I am probably older than the average player. But I am curious, were LAN "Parties" ever very big here in Eastern Europe? In the mid to late 90's and early 2000's that is where I remember the most MP fun I have ever had with at least a monthly 24 hour party somewhere.

PS: MF-, thanks!

[Nemoder]

Do you know that first versions of Minecraft had no multiplayer whatsoever? And yet Minecraft became quite a boom even at that time. Sure multiplayer made it even more popular.

My point was multiplayer was added in the early alpha versions before most of the crafting mechanics were in place which allowed players to work collaboratively on building projects which drove a lot of the early interest in the game. I just wanted to say that if they are going to add multiplayer anyway it is better to do it early on both from a technical point for the engine and also to help bring in more players. Not that it's a requirement for success, certainly Factorio can still be a very popular single player game and many people will be happy with just that.

Projekt W looks interesting, I will have to check it out.

[SilverWarior]

OK let me ask you this thing:
If the multiplayer gets implemented this moment waht will it offer?
Posible benefits of multiplayer that I can think of at this stage:

COOP play:
- factories could be built faster. But once reaching certain size and development status it would all became uninteresting. More ingame content is needed to increase the time before this happens
- players could advice each other. This could be verry beneficial for beginner players but often uninteresting for advanced players.
- easier coping with creper atacks. This would make game way to easy.

PVP play:
- ability for one player to compleetly screw uo other players factory in seconds. Definitly not fun for other player since you destroyed a lot of his work. In Minecraft such procedure is called Griefing.
- compeeting who can make bigger factory and produce goods faster. Interesting at first but quickly became uninteresting since the game doesn't offer much content so gameplays would become quite repetive.

Another problem with multiplayer, besides the need to invest lots of time in it, is that if it isn't implemented corectly and is therefore prone to various bugs it will only drive pepole away from Factorio rather than atract them to it.

[slpwnd]

Concerning mid term goal, I am missing two important things there:

(x) Some map (important at least for me). I would like to see the world surrounding my factory and it is very hard. Even some simple support would help.
(x) Speed Improvement. I would say that this is absolutely key because currently is the game unplayable with a larger factory (I have like 15 fps or less there). It seems to me the game is getting much slower after every release. And since the game graphics looks like 10-15 years old, player won't be very understanding of this (yes, I know, you have all the simulation in the back, but players don't see that). So at least making the game multithreading and looking at it in profiler on some big factory might be helpful.

These two are not mentioned in the midterm goal, but they are actually being worked on right now.

1) The map of the world should be part of the next release (0.6.0 - as mentioned in the Factorio roadmap).
2) At the moment we are also updating the core to be able to take advantage of multiple cores (should be in 0.6.0 too). For the beginning just a simple approach of separating the render and the game update. However this should already have aquite an effect. And as for the profiling - this is something we do often. There is still room for improvements though.

[RawCode]

there is only 1 furnace, only 2 power sources, extremely boring grinding research system, only 1 type of enemy.

what you will do in coop, if there is nothing to do in SP

- factories could be built faster. But once reaching certain size and development status it would all became uninteresting. More ingame content is needed to increase the time before this happens
- players could advice each other. This could be verry beneficial for beginner players but often uninteresting for advanced players.
- easier coping with creper atacks. This would make game way to easy.

1) there is completely no strategy in factory building now, everything single way - if you want to harvest faster, you just build more miners, there is no way to build efficient combos (like miner+storage, not damn chest, structure like silo or pit, that store LARGE amount of ore, miner+diesel, miner+x that allow miner to work in more efficient way), tiers\levels\upgrades for miners, there is no options in current build, you just not allowed to choose how you want to play, you forced to build many building.

2) there is nothing to advice, as soon as player build single factory for tech packs only option to copy it again and again there is no way to improve it, only copy, just nothing to advice.

3) Creeper attacks just stupid.
factorio cannot be compared to vanilla minecraft - it about just building something, not about producing goods.

as long as game does not allow player to choose how to play and force to play in predefined way, multiplayer will not be valid.

[ficolas]

there is only 1 furnace, only 2 power sources, extremely boring grinding research system, only 1 type of enemy.

what you will do in coop, if there is nothing to do in SP

Is harder to male a game mp if its bigger, so is better to make it multiplayer now that it is small.

1) there is completely no strategy in factory building now, everything single way - if you want to harvest faster, you just build more miners, there is no way to build efficient combos (like miner+storage, not damn chest, structure like silo or pit, that store LARGE amount of ore, miner+diesel, miner+x that allow miner to work in more efficient way), tiers\levels\upgrades for miners, there is no options in current build, you just not allowed to choose how you want to play, you forced to build many building.

2) there is nothing to advice, as soon as player build single factory for tech packs only option to copy it again and again there is no way to improve it, only copy, just nothing to advice.

Game is in alpha, they are still working, you cant say that a game doesnt have much things when it is in a very early alpha

3) Creeper attacks just stupid.
factorio cannot be compared to vanilla minecraft - it about just building something, not about producing goods.

They said that they will make a better fighting sistem.

as long as game does not allow player to choose how to play and force to play in predefined way, multiplayer will not be valid.

As I said, is easier to make a game multiplayer when its alpha.

[kovarex]

1) there is completely no strategy in factory building now, everything single way - if you want to harvest faster, you just build more miners, there is no way to build efficient combos (like miner+storage, not damn chest, structure like silo or pit, that store LARGE amount of ore, miner+diesel, miner+x that allow miner to work in more efficient way), tiers\levels\upgrades for miners, there is no options in current build, you just not allowed to choose how you want to play, you forced to build many building.

2) there is nothing to advice, as soon as player build single factory for tech packs only option to copy it again and again there is no way to improve it, only copy, just nothing to advice.

3) Creeper attacks just stupid.
factorio cannot be compared to vanilla minecraft - it about just building something, not about producing goods.

as long as game does not allow player to choose how to play and force to play in predefined way, multiplayer will not be valid.

These are fair points, and we are aware of this.
If you compare the game development to house building, we are trying to make very stable foundations.
First we need to define all the basic game mechanics, graphics, make the game fast and stable enough and see how it works.
There are lot of preparation steps on the way that have to be done, so the advanced stuff could be really useful.

We are discussing ideas that will make the game more diverse.
Now, when you want bigger production, you can just make more more machines, but we are planning other orthogonal ways to higher the factory output.
1) Better version of machines (obvious)
2) Special machines that will affect the rate of production of machines in specified area around it. This would be cumulative and there would be different effects like (faster + more energy consumption), (less input materials needed + more energy consumption), (Energy consumption efficiency boost) and similar. This would (hopefully) force the player to experiment with the shapes in the factory more, to use the effects as much as possible.
3) Something like upgrade modules. Machines would have slots, and you could insert upgrade modules into them, it would be up to you how do you combine these.

P.S. The most strategic piece of Factorio at this moment is probably the "Tight spot" campaign from the challenge pack, it forces you to optimise and improvise in every level to beat it (at least on the higher difficulties), you should give it a try.

Edit: Nice comparison of how big money is needed for a game http://blog.mostlytigerproof.com/2010/0 ... -overview/