Make Solar Energy Research a Prerequisite for Rocket Silo Research in Space Age

[Nataly171]

TL;DR

Since solar panels are required in order to make use of space platforms, unlocking them should be required before unlocking space platforms.

What?

When Space Age is enabled, the research for Rocket Silo should have Solar Energy as a prerequisite.

Why?

Solar panels are the only way to start power production on a space platform. However, since the game gives no indication that solar panels will be required, players may launch a space platform without ever unlocking solar panels, and then be unable to do anything on said space platform. This could potentially be confusing and/or frustrating for newer players who aren't as familiar with Factorio's means of power production. I think the game should ensure that players have solar panels available to them before they create a space platform.

[Panzerknacker]

I would prefer if they would go with another suggestion (viewtopic.php?t=119792) for the sake of having more options but otherwise I strongly agree.

I ran into this myself on my first SA run and besides it being confusing, it simply feels rather lame, gated and linear.

[mmmPI]

I disagree with the proposed change, there is an achievement to launch a rocket to space without using solar pannels, i feel it would be more confusing if player were forced to research something but forbidden to use it.

[Nataly171]

I would prefer if they would go with another suggestion (viewtopic.php?t=119792) for the sake of having more options but otherwise I strongly agree.

More power production options could be nice to have, however keep in mind that even if solar panels weren't required on space platforms, they'd still be necessary for starting power production on Vulcanus and on Aquilo, and thus still strictly necessary to beat the game, and therefore should be required in the tech tree imo.

I disagree with the proposed change, there is an achievement to launch a rocket to space without using solar pannels, i feel it would be more confusing if player were forced to research something but forbidden to use it.

I see the line of reasoning here but I don't personally think the optional challenge achievements should have priority over the regular gameplay experience. Additionally, in the base game, the Solar energy research is already a prerequisite for the Rocket silo research due to the Satellite recipe requiring Solar panels.

[eugenekay]

Solar Panels? Why that just enables Free Energy - and that’s the pathway to Communism! Our Engineering group was originally on an Oil Exploration expedition, when we were waylaid by the intense Gravity Waves emanating from the Shattered Planet…. Corporate Office will be pleased when we return with news of the Nauvis System’s rich natural resources. If we return. We had to vent all of the Oxygen from the crew compartments when they began to organize a Union… it’s for the best, there wasn’t enough Food for all of us to get back to the nearest Starfleet base at the speeds our Platform can achieve.


….wait, has anybody tried eating the Jellynuts? FU-

This post is a joke, obviously.


There are many ways to play the Game, and deciding not/to use Solar Panels is an intentional Option, with tradeoffs in both directions. The Space Age expansion rearranges the tech tree substantially, and Solar Panels are simply not required for Rockets since Satellites are removed. Don’t read into the realism too much - it’s just a game.

[Nataly171]

There are many ways to play the Game, and deciding not/to use Solar Panels is an intentional Option, with tradeoffs in both directions. The Space Age expansion rearranges the tech tree substantially, and Solar Panels are simply not required for Rockets since Satellites are removed. Don’t read into the realism too much - it’s just a game.

I'm sorry did you... read my post? I clearly established that solar panels are Not Optional in space age. I'm not concerned about realism, I'm interested in intuitive and consistent game design.

[eugenekay]

I clearly established that solar panels are Not Optional in space age. I'm not concerned about realism, I'm interested in intuitive and consistent game design.

Yes, I read the original post. It was… a… joke?


The Achievement “Steam All the Way” has a condition of Launching a rocket while not Building any Solar Panels. You don’t need to put a Space Platform Starter Pack in the Rocket … once Unlocked it does not “matter” except for Flavor, which is what I presented a Players Narrative outlining. You can subsequently start a Nuclear Reactor using a Burner Inserter, and water can be sent up in Barrels. There is indeed a hard requirement that Assembling Machine 2 (capable of Fluod Handling) requires some electricity to unload the first barrel, but you can then toss the offending Solar Panel overboard; never to be spoken-of again.

The point is that the Decision to rearrange the tech tree was surely undertaken for good Game Balance reasons. I do not understand how “forcing” players to make the research before launching the Rocket improves anything. If you somehow Forgot to research Solar Panels, and read the Tips & Tricks, and did not spot them in the Tech Tree, then it might be hard to figure out the first time - but if you can’t figure out how to produce Electricity (or look for an Alternative) by the time you launch a Rocket then I’m not sure how you were able to launch the Rocket? I am sorry if you did not like the creative writing - this is a Game; it should be fun.

[Panzerknacker]

I would prefer if they would go with another suggestion (viewtopic.php?t=119792) for the sake of having more options but otherwise I strongly agree.

More power production options could be nice to have, however keep in mind that even if solar panels weren't required on space platforms, they'd still be necessary for starting power production on Vulcanus and on Aquilo, and thus still strictly necessary to beat the game, and therefore should be required in the tech tree imo.

Aquilo is so far down the tech tree that I don't see requiring solar energy a problem there, it can be made a prereq for aquilo in some way. Vulcanus can maybe be found a similar workaround for to get by without solar, you wouldnt expect much sunlight there anyway through the thick sulfur clouds. This way you would have more ways to play the majority of the game.

@eugenekay

The point is your stuck on the space platform unable to progress further because you CANT power it. So you are FORCED to research solar energy from there on to progress. If they want to design the game like that instead of having other options to power the platform fine but having players just browse through the entire tech tree for possible solutions to this seems wrong. They could at least write in the tips & tricks for Space platform that the only way to power them up is Solar.

[computeraddict]

Additionally, in the base game, the Solar energy research is already a prerequisite for the Rocket silo research due to the Satellite recipe requiring Solar panels.

Pretty sure this has only been the case since 2.0 as the satellite and rocket silo used to be separate techs.

I clearly established that solar panels are Not Optional in space age.

You know what research isn't required to beat the base game? Electric mining drills. Everyone does it, though, because it'd be tortuous otherwise. I think a game not holding your hand on presenting a solution is perfectly fine. Solar panels will be staring at you when you realize you can't place boilers and open the tech tree.

[Panzerknacker]

You compare apples and oranges though. Solar panels are required to beat the game so they should be a dependency somewhere. That's how it has always worked in Factorio before.

[Nataly171]

For context, the lens I'm looking at this through is from a potential challenge run idea I had where you only research technologies that are prerequisites for the prometheum science pack research. It is correct that you wouldn't have electric mining drills, nor would you even have gun turrets! Because neither of those items are *strictly required* in order to beat the game. With the way the game is currently, this run would be impossible due to requiring the "optional" solar energy tech.

Yes, this is a completely arbitrary challenge, which obviously shouldn't be a thing that majorly dictates the game's design, however when I thought about it I realized it just makes sense for the game design as a whole, in my opinion.

I clearly established that solar panels are Not Optional in space age. I'm not concerned about realism, I'm interested in intuitive and consistent game design.

Yes, I read the original post. It was… a… joke?

My apologies, I thought only the top half of the message was meant to be a joke, not the entire thing.

There is indeed a hard requirement that Assembling Machine 2 (capable of Fluod Handling) requires some electricity to unload the first barrel, but you can then toss the offending Solar Panel overboard; never to be spoken-of again.

Even if you only use the solar panel for as little as possible, you still need to use it, which means you need to research it, which means the technology is required.

I do not understand how “forcing” players to make the research before launching the Rocket improves anything.

What is your opinion on other forced researches such as rocket turrets, advanced asteroid processing, or fusion reactors (or even explosive damage 1 and 2)? None of those are strictly required to beat the game, and yet researching them is still required for beating the game. This question also extends to the base game tech tree. Tier 3 speed modules aren't required for beating the base game, but researching them is required before being able to research the rocket silo. What are your thoughts on situations like these?

[eugenekay]

What is your opinion on other forced researches such as rocket turrets, advanced asteroid processing, or fusion reactors (or even explosive damage 1 and 2)? None of those are strictly required to beat the game, and yet researching them is still required for beating the game. This question also extends to the base game tech tree. Tier 3 speed modules aren't required for beating the base game, but researching them is required before being able to research the rocket silo. What are your thoughts on situations like these?

I have been playing Factorio occasionally since 2016. There has been a lot of Change, and I have tried a lot of different Modpacks over that time. I have consequently un-memorized most of the Recipes, Layouts, in favor of an Organic "do what works" playstyle. I think this is Fun because it lets me approach each new Problem that I encounter with "fresh eyes".

I quit my Dayjob to play Space Age upon its release without interruption - it was/is the best ride of novel Video Game discovery that I have ever experienced. I spent the first month trying to avoid any "Spoilers", exploring all of the new content directly in-game. It took me about two days of fiddling with Space Platforms and Asteroid crushing setups (shipping Sulfur up from Nauvis) before I realized that "Advanced Asteroid Processing" research was available..... I felt dumb - for having not looked at Factoriopedia or the Tech Tree sooner - and thankful that I had learned a lesson about "look before building". The game did permit me to try to do the "wrong thing" - which I liked - but the Design was there all along to guide me to the right goal, which I ultimately found. I have since built ships which can travel to the Shattered Planet without using Rockets at all, but that was now an intentional choice of mine to do it wrong.

So what do I think about those specific researches? "Meh, they seem reasonable enough". It is something that you have to Click to Unlock, but that is the easy part: the Science Pack production line has to be setup regardless. Crafting, building, and supplying these Entities with consumables is the real challenge of using them.

My larger point is: I don't think this is an area of the Game that needs to be reworked - that has already happened at length on an Official Whiteboard; and the results you see are pretty good.

[Panzerknacker]

For context, the lens I'm looking at this through is from a potential challenge run idea I had where you only research technologies that are prerequisites for the prometheum science pack research. It is correct that you wouldn't have electric mining drills, nor would you even have gun turrets! Because neither of those items are *strictly required* in order to beat the game. With the way the game is currently, this run would be impossible due to requiring the "optional" solar energy tech.

Yes, this is a completely arbitrary challenge, which obviously shouldn't be a thing that majorly dictates the game's design, however when I thought about it I realized it just makes sense for the game design as a whole, in my opinion.

Funny, it's exactly this same challenge run was my first SA run (On Marathon diffficulty with expensive recipes) and dang so dissapointed I was getting hard stuck on the space platform.

[mmmPI]

I disagree with the proposed change, there is an achievement to launch a rocket to space without using solar pannels, i feel it would be more confusing if player were forced to research something but forbidden to use it.

I see the line of reasoning here but I don't personally think the optional challenge achievements should have priority over the regular gameplay experience. Additionally, in the base game, the Solar energy research is already a prerequisite for the Rocket silo research due to the Satellite recipe requiring Solar panels.

It's not about priority, you said about not confusing new player, adding an arbitrary restrictions on solar pannel to suit people's self-imposed challenge is not going to help imo, and the 'consistency argument' doesn't work for me either as, as you said there are differences between space age and regular game where solar pannel prerequisite come from satelites.

I think it's nicely done currently, where you can have a platform, and 'test' different things, see what will or will not work, and then 'understand' you need solar pannel, and research them when you realize you need them, you can start sending platform and place them while researching solar pannel.

Funny, it's exactly this same challenge run was my first SA run (On Marathon diffficulty with expensive recipes) and dang so dissapointed I was getting hard stuck on the space platform.

It's quite bold to self-impose rules on the first try, unfortunately the set of rules you picked doesn't allow finishing the game, and the current proposal wouldn't help.

[Panzerknacker]

I disagree with the proposed change, there is an achievement to launch a rocket to space without using solar pannels, i feel it would be more confusing if player were forced to research something but forbidden to use it.

I see the line of reasoning here but I don't personally think the optional challenge achievements should have priority over the regular gameplay experience. Additionally, in the base game, the Solar energy research is already a prerequisite for the Rocket silo research due to the Satellite recipe requiring Solar panels.

It's not about priority, you said about not confusing new player, adding an arbitrary restrictions on solar pannel to suit people's self-imposed challenge is not going to help imo, and the 'consistency argument' doesn't work for me either as, as you said there are differences between space age and regular game where solar pannel prerequisite come from satelites.

I think it's nicely done currently, where you can have a platform, and 'test' different things, see what will or will not work, and then 'understand' you need solar pannel, and research them when you realize you need them, you can start sending platform and place them while researching solar pannel.

Funny, it's exactly this same challenge run was my first SA run (On Marathon diffficulty with expensive recipes) and dang so dissapointed I was getting hard stuck on the space platform.

It's quite bold to self-impose rules on the first try, unfortunately the set of rules you picked doesn't allow finishing the game, and the current proposal wouldn't help.

Tbh it just feels rather lame gameplay wise to land on your first space platform only to discover its going to be completely dead until after waiting for another 1K science (on marathon) research to be completed. This has absolutely nothing to do with self imposed challenges. Do you even know how easy and fast you can rush to Rocket silo in SA? Probably not because I bet you're one of these players that researches every tech in order of required science regardless if you need it or not. Well fyi, I can tell you from my own experience having solar the moment your rocket silo is built is not at all logical, you can get there very easy with steam power. I actually think me and OP's 'challenge' is a very normal way to play because the game is designed on purpose such that you open the techtree in order to see how you can progress, since the entire progress is directly linked to the completed research. Knowing this, why the hell should I research things I don't even need to progress???

Me and OP as we said before are talking from a pure gameplay perspective. You are in fact actually the one making the game restricted to your way of playing.

Stop trying to turn reality into bullshit and the other way around.

[mmmPI]

Me and OP as we said before are talking from a pure gameplay perspective. You are in fact actually the one making the game restricted to your way of playing.

Stop trying to turn reality into bullshit and the other way around.

I feel like advocating for a specific technology to be a pre-requisite to something else is adding a restriction that currently doesn't exist and as such feel like the underlined part is grotesque. It tells a lot imo if you think it's not obvious that you are on purpose writing only reasons to contradict your own conclusion before adding it.

why the hell should I research things I don't even need to progress???

Exactly ,why force solar pannel to be researched before you can have a platform, when you don't need them to build the platform tiles which you need to do first ????

[Panzerknacker]

Your reactions clearly demonstrate you never tried to play the game in the way many new players would.

Also, as the devs themselves said, the reason the whole tech tree is visible from the beginning is because they want players to be able to plan.

Nothing needs to be added here, I know you will come up with another false counter argument but I got better things to do.

[Nataly171]

It's quite bold to self-impose rules on the first try, unfortunately the set of rules you picked doesn't allow finishing the game, and the current proposal wouldn't help.

I think you may be misunderstanding the suggestion? Either that or I am misunderstanding what you are saying here, because the "current proposal" (my original post) would exactly help this specific set of rules. Regardless, yes, the self-imposed rules are barely relevant to the suggestion itself, I mentioned it just to give context and perspective.

It's not about priority, you said about not confusing new player, adding an arbitrary restrictions on solar pannel to suit people's self-imposed challenge is not going to help imo, and the 'consistency argument' doesn't work for me either as, as you said there are differences between space age and regular game where solar pannel prerequisite come from satelites.

To reiterate, my "consistency argument" is this: in all other instances in both the base game and the space age dlc, everything that is strictly necessary in order to beat the game is also a required prerequisite for the game-winning research. Solar energy in space age is the sole exception to this, and I think it's strange to have just one exception like this

In all honesty I see this as likely an oversight, and was considering posting it as a bug report, but I don't really know if it's intentional or not. That does bring up an interesting question I think, if a bug/oversight is as harmless and inconsequential as this, does it really "need" to be fixed? If I had posted this as a bug report, would the response be different? (This is a genuine question by the way, I am here to have a discussion, not an argument. Sorry if anything I say comes off as trying to "win", that is not my intention, I'm just trying to understand and be understood.)

[Panzerknacker]

You are 100% correct, solar is a prereq to beat the game and if you're gonna make it a prereq in the techtree then the only logical place would be before the Rocket silo. This will force players into having access to solar energy very early in the game and it conflicts in a way with the achievement of launching a rocket without solar. So once again, in my opinion it will be far better if we are allowed to get by without solar atleast until we need to go to Aquilo, that will promote more different playstyles, I'm sure it will just make the game better in general.

[mmmPI]

Regardless, yes, the self-imposed rules are barely relevant to the suggestion itself

I agree.

And i don't see any new arguments, i think i have understood what you think should be consistency, but disagree, there's no need for a technoloogy that has different use in 2.0 and SA to be unlocked at the same time, and that would even seem like a choice by the devs and not something that happens on its own , i only see your write you think it's an oversight, but that seem very illogical to me.