Version 2.0.45

[mmmPI]

Wouhouuuu !

[thedoh]

Just an update:
1. In the next release, all saves started with version prior 2.0.45 will not have the achievements limited the new way.
2. There is a new popup which tells you which achievements (and why) are going to be disabled if you start with these settings. (In the map generator gui).

In context of the changes that will be put in place, this is a good subsequent change.

3. I still have plan for bunch of new achievements for 2.1, which should make 100% run even more convoluted (=intereseting for most people hopefully), I'm even considering to add a 100% run mode, which would be the way to get one special achievement of you getting all achievements in one go. There are arguments against it, so it is still part of the discussion.

I personally am looking forward the moment, when I add these new acheivement, and will personally try to make the 100% run, the only way to see how hard it is and to make some possible balance changes.

I'm curious to hear more about what this will look like. Perhaps 2.0.45 and follow-up achievement changes would be an excellent FFF topic, eh?

[AntiElitz]

Just an update:
1. In the next release, all saves started with version prior 2.0.45 will not have the achievements limited the new way.
2. There is a new popup which tells you which achievements (and why) are going to be disabled if you start with these settings. (In the map generator gui).
3. I still have plan for bunch of new achievements for 2.1, which should make 100% run even more convoluted (=intereseting for most people hopefully), I'm even considering to add a 100% run mode, which would be the way to get one special achievement of you getting all achievements in one go. There are arguments against it, so it is still part of the discussion.

I personally am looking forward the moment, when I add these new acheivement, and will personally try to make the 100% run, the only way to see how hard it is and to make some possible balance changes.

New achievents sound fun. I / we speedrunners are happy to help if you would appreciate help with balancing them, and deciding what is fun. I am certain we can benefit from each others knowledge

[Chindraba]

1. In the next release, all saves started with version prior 2.0.45 will not have the achievements limited the new way.

I thank you and your team for this one line. I'm sure there are many players who'll be even more thankful as well as hundreds who never know they should be. Recently, somewhere around 2.0.15, I started 'reading' the patch notes when the game updated, and even later I started to read them as they were made in experimental releases. I used to 'read' them the same way most people read EULAs, and I'm sure I was not in the minority for that.

3. I still have plan for bunch of new achievements for 2.1, which should make 100% run even more convoluted (=intereseting for most people hopefully),

Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water factory. Now I can continue my current 95% run, or start a new one in the experimental branch. Either way it's destined to become something else, like 83% or some such. (Once 2.1 drops.)
Still, I do like the addition of achievements. Just the timing is personally bad. My issue not yours.

3. I'm even considering to add a 100% run mode, which would be the way to get one special achievement of you getting all achievements in one go. There are arguments against it, so it is still part of the discussion.

I personally am looking forward the moment, when I add these new acheivement, and will personally try to make the 100% run, the only way to see how hard it is and to make some possible balance changes.

This one truly is 'interesting'. I'm not sure how rare or common it is, but I have the impression that with many games it is possible to get all the achievements, but not in one round. That it can be done in Factorio is something I like, rare or not. However, it is also quite possible, and probably the majority way, to earn different ones in different games, finally earning all of them and having it show as a 'perfect' game on Steam.

Having an achievement for doing a 100% run eliminates that possibility. For many this could be bad news. The flip side, and one I'd have loved to see in 1.1, is that with that achievement 'on the books' it shows that no matter how the rules have changed since, nor how many times, at some point the user did complete a single run earning every achievement. My 100% run in 1.1 would have earned that, and I could have kept the record of such a success. Instead, once SA released my 38 badges represented a 43% 'run' instead of the 100% run it was the day before.

One thing I would really not like to see is that the 100% mode requires a single run in a single sitting with no pause or save and load. With all due respect to the titans of speedrunning, the rest of us, mere mortals that we are, cannot sit at the computer and complete one game in the nearly 40 hours Express delivery allows. Life happens and sometimes the game just has to take a back seat. A grand, and crowning, achievement should not be something reserved for the gods alone.

Having read enough on the Steam forums about 'cheesing' mods, it would be a good idea to include a consistency check that the starting mods remain the only mods for the entire game. The checks for this are already built into the code with the replay save feature.

In addition, with Steam's penchant for automatic updates without using the Beta feature, which is not as well known as I'd have thought, it would be handy if, once enabled, the 100% mode disabled updates completely. That forced update system has burnt me on more than one occasion until I also discovered the Beta feature.

[protocol_1903]

Having read enough on the Steam forums about 'cheesing' mods, it would be a good idea to include a consistency check that the starting mods remain the only mods for the entire game. The checks for this are already built into the code with the replay save feature.

I'd actually argue against this, especially if a single-run 100% achievement is added. I don't think it's worth limiting people that way, especially since it's never been limited that way since achievements have been added to the game. If they had wanted to do it, they would have done it sooner.

[Chindraba]

Having read enough on the Steam forums about 'cheesing' mods, it would be a good idea to include a consistency check that the starting mods remain the only mods for the entire game. The checks for this are already built into the code with the replay save feature.

I'd actually argue against this, especially if a single-run 100% achievement is added. I don't think it's worth limiting people that way, especially since it's never been limited that way since achievements have been added to the game.

I'd only recommend doing that check for the 100% run achievement. Partially because, as you said, it's never been limited that way before, and since such a solitary all-encompassing achievement has not existed before there's been no call to deal with it. I'm certain I'll never be good enough to earn it, but for those who do, it ought to have some weight, some level of assurance, that this one achievement actually means something. Something other than "I can sit at my computer for 40 hours straight and still be awake."

... especially since it's never been limited that way since achievements have been added to the game. If they had wanted to do it, they would have done it sooner.

There in lies the vast majority of the complaints about what was done in this version, and the reason for the length of this thread. Pollution, evolution, trees and even the starting area size were never part of the limits 'since achievements have been added to the game". Never, that is, until 2.0.45 in 2025.

[protocol_1903]

... especially since it's never been limited that way since achievements have been added to the game. If they had wanted to do it, they would have done it sooner.

There in lies the vast majority of the complaints about what was done in this version, and the reason for the length of this thread. Pollution, evolution, trees and even the starting area size were never part of the limits 'since achievements have been added to the game". Never, that is, until 2.0.45 in 2025.

I'm more arguing that, though the 2.0.45 achievement change was unprecedented, something like the modcheck proposed would be a whole other issue due to anything like it being completely different from any controversial change we've seen for Factorio. As controversial as this change was, the proposed achievement check would be even more so. Cause then there's issues with consistency, and why one does it and others dont, and probably other issues.

[Merssedes]

Why have mod checks if any mods outside official ones switch achievements into modded state?

[meganothing]

I find it strange that you can get achievements with arbitrary mods enabled. Any setting that were forbidden could then be added by a mod. How do speed runners check that no (self-made) mod is used to make shortcuts? The published save-game I suppose?

For "normal" players I suppose achievements are just preset goals so comparability really doesn't matter for them. So I understand that it ultimately isn't important that all loopholes are closed.

A neat solution, if any is needed at all, could be that any in-game achievement gets a string added with identifying information about all mods used (id-number+version-number in the modportal for example if they are immutable).

[mmmPI]

I find it strange that you can get achievements with arbitrary mods enabled. Any setting that were forbidden could then be added by a mod. How do speed runners check that no (self-made) mod is used to make shortcuts? The published save-game I suppose?

modded-game achievements are tracked separately than steam achievements ! If you use mods and unlock some achievements during a game, and play again without mod, no achievement will be "achieved", as if a reset had been operated.

For "normal" players I suppose achievements are just preset goals so comparability really doesn't matter for them. So I understand that it ultimately isn't important that all loopholes are closed.

That's my feeling too.

[Chindraba]

In the current, 2.0.45, state of the game you can start a new vanilla Space Age game on pure default settings, not even bothering to preview the map.
Tab past the cut scene, save and exit. Enable the Editor extension mod and reload the game.
Working through the tech tree to unlock the discovery techs you can use the editor tools to build everything while crafting nothing.
At each point where you can earn an achievement, the first being Automate this, just save the game, unload the mod, and reload the game. Get that achievement. Save the game, reload the mod, rinse and repeat. Non-discovery techs can be "researched" instantly, and entire branches can be "researched" with a single click.
The only achievements which will be 'hard' to get are the accumulated production ones, such as Iron throne. For those the game tracks whether the production is done with mods or without, so they require that you make the thing, 20M circuits, or reach the production level, 200/hr, with mods off. Not really hard, but harder than the rest. Steam rolled and Run forest run, fit into the cumulative group as well.

My skill level is low enough that I'll never be able to get the Work around the clock achievement. Yet, with mods, I could probably complete a SA 100% run in a couple hours. With every achievement being recorded on Steam.

How do speed runners check that no (self-made) mod is used to make shortcuts? The published save-game I suppose?

Two methods. First is, of course, the published save-game. That's only partially reliable, currently, however as nothing tracks the loading or unloading of mods in the game, only the present state of modded or not. The second method is that they also have to make a video of the entire game from main menu to final event, death by train in the 100% run. Those videos are checked and forgers are caught, even when they edit the video. Obviously, to be a speedrun it has to be in one, non-stop, session since the wall-clock time, not the game's timer, are the 'times' which count. Slow computers where the UPS drops in big bases would have extra time to click and move if the game clock was counted. Of course, the wall-clock method means weak computers are at a disadvantage since it will take longer, on the wall, for machines running at 30 UPS to make a rocket than for those with big-rigs running at 60 UPS.

The idea of checking that no mods were used, and nothing was changed, for someone to complete a 100% run is possible now, just not enforced. In the New game GUI, at the stage where you can select Freeplay or Tutorial, which myself and probably 90% of the player just click through quickly, it is possible to turn on the feature to save replay data. With that on, the save game can be loaded in replay mode and you can watch every move you made, or someone else can. The replay save data persists across multiple load/save cycles. The significant part is that if you load a game with that option on, and any of the mod information has changed: mod added, mod removed, mod version change the ability to save replays for that game ends. The same thing happens if the game version changes. So, if I were to do a 100% run in SA and had turned on the replay option, if the option to replay the save is there when someone loads the save file they know that nothing about mods changed anywhere in that game; the way I finished it is the way I started it and the way it was for the entire time. It might be 3 weeks worth of IRL time and only 30 hours of game time, so not even possible as a speedrun entry, but still proof of what conditions applied to the 100% run.

My comment for the limit on the official, 100% run achievement, if they do make one, is that the same system which enforces the replay option be used to make the earning of that one, super achievement, have the same limits. That and to turn off the auto update feature so an update don't ruin someone's attempt at getting it without then knowing, or being able to prevent it.

[mmmPI]

Two methods. First is, of course, the published save-game. That's only partially reliable, currently, however as nothing tracks the loading or unloading of mods in the game, only the present state of modded or not.

Not correct , people use the replay system which as you say :

if the option to replay the save is there when someone loads the save file they know that nothing about mods changed anywhere in that game;

[Chindraba]

Two methods. First is, of course, the published save-game. That's only partially reliable, currently, however as nothing tracks the loading or unloading of mods in the game, only the present state of modded or not.

Not correct , people use the replay system which as you say :

if the option to replay the save is there when someone loads the save file they know that nothing about mods changed anywhere in that game;

I'm glad to be corrected.
I'm glad they use that tool.
Never been 'qualified' for speedrunning, never checked their rules very deep.

[mmmPI]

Never been 'qualified' for speedrunning, never checked their rules very deep.

It's not too late ! rules are available at : https://www.speedrun.com/factorio =)

[Chindraba]

Never been 'qualified' for speedrunning, never checked their rules very deep.

It's not too late ! rules are available at : https://www.speedrun.com/factorio =)

I'm so far below any potential time for a submission that the rules mean little to me.
I do see that they have that requirement now for any 100% run and for the top 3 or 5 in any category.
Seems it was added about 6 months ago. Glad they decided to use that tool. Rather handy having the game itself helping to keep the competition clean.
Even in Space Age I can barely get the rocket launch in time for TINS. While the top for 2.0 base game, rocket much later, is in the 4 hour range. I'm not in the same league, and barely on the same planet, as speedrunners. Just a mere mortal who plays casually.

Now that the replay is required, I might download a few of the saves just to watch a speedrunner in action without the commentary.

Edit: Bad idea. Even in replay mode without distractions I'm too slow to even follow her cursor, let alone see what she's doing. Asgard remains untouchable for me.

[Warger]

Just an update:
1. In the next release, all saves started with version prior 2.0.45 will not have the achievements limited the new way.
2. There is a new popup which tells you which achievements (and why) are going to be disabled if you start with these settings. (In the map generator gui).
3. I still have plan for bunch of new achievements for 2.1, which should make 100% run even more convoluted (=intereseting for most people hopefully), I'm even considering to add a 100% run mode, which would be the way to get one special achievement of you getting all achievements in one go. There are arguments against it, so it is still part of the discussion.

I personally am looking forward the moment, when I add these new acheivement, and will personally try to make the 100% run, the only way to see how hard it is and to make some possible balance changes.

these are wonderful news! I am extremely excited for new content, especially when it comes to achievements since i mainly play factorio as a 100% speedrunner!

now i really cant wait for 2.1! Btw if you need help with feedback, beta testing, suggestions or help for the achievements to make them interesting and fun i think that the whole speedrunning community would be more than happy to help in any way you see fit.
on a different note, any rough estimates for 2.1? or is it too early to make this statement?

Thank you for making this game constantly better!

[Assembling_machine_2]

I understand not giving biter-related achievements when biters are effectively disabled, but why does that have to also mean that biters can't be any less of a threat than on default settings? If you can't disable pollution diffusion or evolution, biters will still be at least a decent bit of a challenge to 100% players even at a 600% starting area size. I feel like, as well as all the mentioned speedrunners, this change hurts casual players too. 100% on default settings has always been more prestigious than 100% with map settings of your choice, and I don't really see why it shouldn't be up to the players to decide what level of challenge they want. My thought would be to keep the checks for pollution diffusion and evolution, but otherwise roll back these changes. That way biters still have to be at least a bit of a challenge, but they don't necessarily derail everything. One of the things I've really liked about Factorio is how, even with the achievements, how much you challenge yourself is really up to you.

[monester]

I'm not doing a speedruns but doing all achievements in one game really interesting. I think it would be nice to have global achievements and this game achievements distinguish.

As a side disussion - I don't understand why installing any mods disable steam achievements. Can anyone give me reasoning behing this limitation?

[Panzerknacker]

Because you can make a mod that dramatically reduces the difficulty. For example set all research cost to 10 science packs, or why not just grant a free rocket silo from the beginning of the game with free rockets.

With mods enabled you can't guarantee the minimum effort required to be awarded an achievement.

[thedoh]

I'm not doing a speedruns but doing all achievements in one game really interesting. I think it would be nice to have global achievements and this game achievements distinguish.

As a side disussion - I don't understand why installing any mods disable steam achievements. Can anyone give me reasoning behing this limitation?

The joke is that if you allow mods for, say, any% where the goal is to simply launch a rocket, the mod will give you a rocket silo that is ready to already launch.