Version 2.0.45

[Erichteia]

this update made a big increase in particle update time.

Also its missing a very nice UPS improvement, inserters will now sleep when their target is full and the target is a lab/turret

You're joking. That's awesome! Was such a massive source of UPS drainage in any base I checked to help players with performance, so nice they fixed it.

[konage]

this update made a big increase in particle update time.

Also its missing a very nice UPS improvement, inserters will now sleep when their target is full and the target is a lab/turret

You're joking. That's awesome! Was such a massive source of UPS drainage in any base I checked to help players with performance, so nice they fixed it.

yep from a bit of testing I did with 16 beaconed biolabs, the inserter:biolab UPS cost used to be about 6:1 and now its 1:1 or 1.5:1 roughly. The clocking I do still helps get it down to ~0.67:1, but even without clocking its a massive improvement for people who didn't do clocking

[kovarex]

So will you at least address the fact that none of these new rules are mentioned in the map generation screen, like they are for peaceful mode?

Done

Deathworld also disables achievements. I can't imagine that's an intended effect?

Done (related to the absorbtion modifier bug

So in the interest of not changing 100% speedruns in the future again: Is it on purpose that the pollution "absorption modifier" is still allowed to be raised to 400%? That odd one out setting still does doesn't invalidate achievements, but will make biters vastly easier to deal with.

Yea, this was a mistake, I fixed it for the next release.

[sclaw]

My friend and I have been working for several weeks on the Express Delivery achievement using the allowable parameters of 2.0.43, and are about halfway. Coordinating schedules is not easy and so it has been a substantial effort to get this far. Given this upcoming achievement change, we're at a crossroads of whether to try finishing this before 2.0.45+ becomes stable or painfully scrap all of that work.

When is this expected to go to Stable? Would it be possible to have a grace period or an exemption for saves started before 2.0.45?

[mmmPI]

I understand the concerns from speedrunners in how their community could be affected, i'm no speedrunner myself, but watching speedruns is what convinced me to download the demo last decade or something

I think it's a positive sign to see the attention to feedback from the devs.

I had always thought that 100% speedrun were "weird" in that you are not entitled to a game where it has to be possible, it could have happenned by design that an achievement is "kill no nest" and another one "kill your first nest with X", that would make it impossible to achieve in a single run and i'd be totally fine with it for what it means about how the achievements are used to add to the gameplay by providing scenarios and goals one need to plan a strategy to get and not virtual tokens of pride. If there was an achievement to finish in under 4 hours and craft less than 5 item by hand it could be so hard it could require hundred players to have a chance and that would be give a different purpose to this particular achievement, one to incentivize building large community of players/viewers and make them participate.

Also i think it's not healthy to play 15 hours in a row, a bit like extreme sport were it's not a good advise to tell people to train to do back flip on rooftop until they can make it despite it being some people's job.

I think runs that are on "default settings not seeded" are the most impressive, because it's where i can relate the most, when i click on the play button too, i'm doing the same thing for around 1.5 seconds. When i watch 100% run, i'm skipping some parts, i'm trying to understand the strat and have an idea of the big picture using splits to navigate the video, i think they are true show of dedication, it's "less" impressive for me in the execution rather than in what it takes as preparation, it's where the strategy will have the bigger impact in absolute numbers so it feels more than the other category a display of consistency and preparation rather than perfect timing, as watching a marathon vs a great action over 30 seconds in a collective sports.

I know many people watch marathon, there's more to watch than in 100 meter run i guess it's just not my thing, i still hope the category doesn't disappear and speedrunners find a way to maintain a set of rules with consistency, possibly dicussing it with devs, i understand that it means something beyonds the achievements. I think the goals stated by devs in the recent change are not too dissimilar to what would constitute a "good" set of rules for runs to be comparable, in that it would yield similar starting situations and encompass all aspects of the game.

I wouldn't feel less of 98% run, because there's this one achievement related to starting settings that makes the games 60 hours long if you plan for it and no-one runs that, it would still be a run worth 100% respect in my eyes ^^

[AntiElitz]

Hey,
just one thing I wanted to add, because it’s been bothering me a bit while reading some of the replies here.

It feels weird to have people tell us we’re “playing the game wrong” or that the run shouldn’t exist, especially when they’ve never actually played or engaged with that kind of run. We’re not asking anyone else to run it, watch it, or even like it. Just to let us keep doing something we enjoy that doesn’t harm anyone.

I don’t mean this aggressively, but yeah: that kind of attitude comes off a bit paternalistic. We know what we like. We’ve built a category around it. If it’s not for you, that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

[Loewchen]

My friend and I have been working for several weeks on the Express Delivery achievement using the allowable parameters of 2.0.43, and are about halfway. Coordinating schedules is not easy and so it has been a substantial effort to get this far. Given this upcoming achievement change, we're at a crossroads of whether to try finishing this before 2.0.45+ becomes stable or painfully scrap all of that work.

When is this expected to go to Stable? Would it be possible to have a grace period or an exemption for saves started before 2.0.45?

You can just opt into the .43 outdated steam beta once a new stable version is live.

[Chindraba]

... Saying that you "discovered the exploit recently" i just can't buy it. Wether that is true or not, the feeling is there. ...

Though there's much said, I'm going with this point most. I'm not sure how the office communications are handled. I presume quite well since so many things needing multiple hands are done with speed and precision. Still, it seems some things get lost in the void.

The effect of pollution settings on achievements, label as an exploit at the time, have been presented before.

viewtopic.php?p=323506

It's been a long time getting this "bug fix" handled.

[Chindraba]

So will you at least address the fact that none of these new rules are mentioned in the map generation screen, like they are for peaceful mode?

Done

Deathworld also disables achievements. I can't imagine that's an intended effect?

Done (related to the absorbtion modifier bug

Thank you for this much.

So in the interest of not changing 100% speedruns in the future again: Is it on purpose that the pollution "absorption modifier" is still allowed to be raised to 400%? That odd one out setting still does doesn't invalidate achievements, but will make biters vastly easier to deal with.

Yea, this was a mistake, I fixed it for the next release.

In the same vein, no future changes to 100% runs, what about the enemy base settings for Gleba?
Currently they have no effect. (And this I would classify as a bug.)

[mmmPI]

Though there's much said, I'm going with this point most.

I have hard time understanding what is the suggestion you are trying to highlight here.

[Chindraba]

Though there's much said, I'm going with this point most.

I have hard time understanding what is the suggestion you are trying to highlight here.

Timing.

Somehow the impression was received that the pollution and difficulty oversight was recently discovered at WUBE.
Some user was skeptical about that.
It may, or may not, have been recently discovered, but it was at one point in the past known before as well.
Link provided.

[mmmPI]

Timing.

Somehow the impression was received that the pollution and difficulty oversight was recently discovered at WUBE.
Some user was skeptical about that.
It may, or may not, have been recently discovered, but it was at one point in the past known before as well.
Link provided.

Sorry i may be idiot but just to confirm, that's not a suggestion concerning the game right ?

When i read the thread you linked i understood that the recent change is in the spirit of what devs had said earlier but never implemented, now it is implemented , thanks you for providing the link showing that it was discussed earlier.

I feel like i have missed the point of your intervention though, that why i asked if there was a proposal or something regarding the futures rules that is still not ok after the hotfix announced

[Chindraba]

Sorry i may be idiot but just to confirm, that's not a suggestion concerning the game right ?

You are correct. The post I made which you responded to, is not a suggestion concerning the game. Such would, if I understand the forum correctly, belong in the Ideas and Suggestions section.

When i read the thread you linked i understood that recent the change is in the spirit of what devs had said earlier but never implemented, now it is implemented , thanks you for providing the link showing that it was discussed earlier.

Then you should read that post again. The introduction of pollution settings to reduce the 'difficulty' was mentioned too the devs, not discussed by them.

I feel like i have missed the point of your intervention though, that why i asked if there was a proposal or something regarding the futures rules that is still not ok after the hotfix announced

The point, in this case is 'hot fix'. Check the date on the link (2017-12-16), and the referenced version number [0.15.30).

Four years and several major versions don't seem to equate to a 'hot' fix.

My original post was quite focused. Even the quote used was parsed to a minimum. There is no reference to any future change, to any effect on players or speedrunners, or to any other points, issues, or concerns raised in this thread. The post I made was, as described just before, about the timing, perceived or otherwise.

[Chindraba]

The impact of the achievement difficulty check on speedrunners is, to me, lamentable. I do believe, with what I think I understand of their system, that attaching such a change to a major version bump would make administration easier. Times in 2.0 are hardly compared to times in 1.1 now. If this were part of 2.1 the times in 2.0 could all stand as valid, and have no comparison with times in 2.1. As a minor patch change they probably don't have the ability, in a practical sense, to split the times between 'versions' and it seems they're looking at simply invalidating all current, pre 2.0.45, runs. Sad for me to see even though I've no presence, or potential, in their ecosystem.

This change, no matter when it goes into effect for stable versions, only enhances the split between mortals and speedrunners. The change looks to even divide the deities of speedrunners into gods and demi-gods, and for those with enough stamina to do SA 100% we'll even get to find the gods of the gods.

With that out of the way, in all of the highest regard for speedrunners, I don't think the impact on them is what makes this change a bad choice, as well as bad timing. New achievements certainly need new conditions. The mixing of base game achievements and SA achievements seems to also be a poor choice, yet it might be dictated by the way achievements are handled with Steam for 'base games' and 'DLCs'. Steam is not a perfect system, at all. (I'd love to see what it could be under the control of WUBE.) Yet, with it's issues, Steam is still the current "community" which games need to at least deal with, if not adjust to.

As an example of the issue with mixing achievements look at There is no spoon. It took me months, nearly a year, to finally earn that one. (Not the most skilled player in any group.). With the change to achievements, and the 'loss' of my 'perfect' game, I reset my achievements. I spent several attempts to get Getting on track like a pro, the key point for any game I play, yet with the first one to clear that mark I earned TINS with ease. Not because I knew what to do, had a stable of blueprints, and executed a plan with precision. Merely because it was a simple step. It went from being a challenge, and in my case a major hurdle, to being a matter of course. If I tried to earn it in the base game, I probably couldn't. The 'spark' of that challenge is gone. The challenge itself is gone. At the same time I loose the 'challenge' of something difficult I'm also told that I'm playing the game wrong. I cannot change anything someone has decided makes it easier, while I can change things they don't care about yet others would call cheating. If I don't change how I view and play the game I'm no longer worthy of some achievements. Achievements I've previously managed, perhaps with seconds to spare, to earn.

As the only game I've played for four years, and countless hours, I may not be an expert, yet I'm a bit invested in the changes they make. Sure, they can make any change they like, and call it anything they want. I'm surely not going to quit, I can still be displeased, and in this case even disappointed, with a change they make.

Now, do I play a biter-fighter game or do I play a factory-growing game? Mortal that I am I lack the skill to play both in one skin. I could keep what I have and ditch the rest. Of the 10 affected, 2 I'll never get, 4 I have and 4 are soon to be denied for my current run. (Though I've no clue what any of the 'difficulty' settings has to do with demolishers and building or not in their territory.) There is one other alternative, or at least one I can think of. Set resources to max and water to 50% scale, then roll for a green map. With enough resources and water taking out many of the nearby nests at generation it's nearly as good as 600% starting area and resources will be enough that I'd be able to build, and defend, walls to keep the starting area clear forever and never want for resources - both from the plenty provided by max settings and from the infinite resources of space/Vulcanus/Gleba. (So much for 'difficulty' settings!)

[mmmPI]

Then you should read that post again. The introduction of pollution settings to reduce the 'difficulty' was mentioned too the devs, not discussed by them.

I have and i clearly read devs discussing it.

I have, however, done one, and only one, complete game earning all the achievements. I did it in Vanilla with full Steam achievements available. I also did this in 1.1, and ended up with my 100% "Perfect" game becoming a 'nothing' game when 2.0 added many more achievements. I was, to say the least, quite unhappy when I realized my perfect game was not perfect any longer. I earned that 'achievement' when it was valid, yet a change the list wiped out my 'reward' as if I'd done nothing. It seems even worse now. Not only is the list new - erasing what I'd accomplished, even the very rules have changed. I can no longer earn the bulk of the achievements unless I play the game exactly the way someone else declares as 'the right way to play.'

I don't think this is a valid point compared to those mentionned by speedrunners that's all.

If Space Age adds achievement you don't have 100% anymore, yeah that's the point x)

[mmmPI]

The point, in this case is 'hot fix'. Check the date on the link (2017-12-16), and the referenced version number [0.15.30).
Four years and several major versions don't seem to equate to a 'hot' fix.

We are not talking about the same thing, the "hot fix" is kovarex announcing deathworld and train world preset would still have achievements, and the inclusion of pollution absorption to make it consistent for 100% run rules in the future. This is a hotfix. This for me is what came of constructive proposition by players, because it mention something devs can act upon in a rationnal way and my whole interrogation was if there was still something that may have been missed.

It's weird you are unable to explain the suggestions in your own post when asked and feel the need to bury them into walls of non-constructive rant here they are as TL DR :

1) make the change a major version

2) make sure Gleba's ennemy are accounted for in starting settings

[Chindraba]

We are not talking about the same thing, the "hot fix" is kovarex announcing deathworld and train world preset would still have achievements, and the inclusion of pollution absorption to make it consistent for 100% run rules in the future. This is a hotfix. This for me is what came of constructive proposition by players, because it mention something devs can act upon in a rationnal way and my whole interrogation was if there was still something that may have been missed.

Thank you for your input.

[pantabo1]

10 dollar for the developer that reverts the change to the achievement behaviour.

[ounce4464]

https://www.factorio.com/download/archive/
Just do like every speedrunning community does and run the category you're interested in on the best patch for it, instead of trying to adapt latest patch to your use case

[SeaRyanC]

While I agree with the change in spirit (being able to turn off pollution and still get the achievement always felt weird), this is just a totally wild time to choose to do it. This behavior has been known for years pre-SE, and I'm sure a large proportion of people who have the Express Delivery or There Is No Spoon achievement today did so with map settings that are now considered invalid.

It seems like it would make sense to fork the existing speed achievements into any% and "default settings" categories, with TisS/ED being in the prior and two new achievements for default settings.