Version 2.0.45

[P1tta]

I want to add my view to the achievement topic aswell

I am a speedrunner aswell and in the last 4 years was quite involved in the speedrun.com/leader board topic

The change in itself makes a lot of sense to me.
Getting a biter related achievement while playing with very few and passive biters (also quite late in the gameplay) seems strange to me.

For a speedrunner context this means though that a "100%-run" basically went from an almost biterless category to a category where you have to adjust you run to biters.
I see that some runners want to play 100% but without biters that's not possible with the changes, but other runners that didn't run 100% in the past might pick up the category now because of the changes.

The timing now can be seen as unfortunately for the speedrunner community, compared to close to the release of 2.0 because there are some runs already done with the previous game restrictions and there is various amount of planning/routing done that is somewhat irrelevant now.
Though I think it's useful to have the fix now rather then wait for it.
It would be easier to have it early, but the speedrun community will find a solution for it.

I find it very useful to share that this change has a big impact on one category of the speedrunning community (albeit a very visible category on twitch), but I want to remind that all other categories aren't affected and that.
It changes one category and prolongs it by 30-90min, but judging if that's good or bad is a personal preference.

I think the game shouldn't focus on speedrunners while developing, fixing or balancing the game.
But we should share what implications changes have and maybe a small change for the whole audience is a very controversial and sometimes bad change for speedrunners.
Wube in the end can decide how they want to adjust their game.

Speedrunners will find a way to have fun with the game anyway.

[pomp567]

Games change and the weight of achievements changes along with the games. A lot of factorio's achievements aren't the exact same difficulty 1they were a few years ago.

Watch the devs rollback that bugfix and add a new achievement for "finish the game in 40 hours with default settings"

[kdovik]

As a casual non-speedrunner I find it odd that my 100+ hours save game should suddenly be locked out of some achievements because I generated my world with increased starting area size when there was absolutely no indication that this is supposed happen when I started the game.
Imho this is not a good change and I don't understand how it's a "bug fix", unless the bug was both in the UI and the game code and this somehow went unnoticed for half a year since release.

[Shogal]

To me, this change is annoying too, because I prefer Rail World and think it as more natural way to play Factorio than the default settings. Also, I agree this should not come in a minor patch, because this update forces players to restart their games over if they still want to get corresponding achievements and started the game with more relaxed and comfortable settings (which were absolutely allowed before this update).
It feels okay and natural to start the new game when the major update comes out (like many people did in the release of 2.0), but not when the minor patch breaks something.

[meganothing]

... Yes, I consider it that much of a course change in the game.

I've just got to yell at someone, anyone.

.......


What on Earth or Nauvis, in Vanilla or not, on Steam or not, is so important about achievements that it requires any attempts at making things equal?

Ok, so this change is emotionally so important to you that you need to yell at someone, but I assume it is your rational being that seems to be asking what is so important about achievements.

I am siding with your rational self by the way. Unless you are in some juvenile group that actually compares achievements (??) you would know you have that achievement even if the game says something else. So for yourself or your self esteem this should make no difference.

Achievements are a nice way to set a goal for yourself (speedrunner or not). And actually sometimes a reset gives one even a new opportunity for achieving a goal again. But **in general** goals worth anything can't be set in stone for eternity when the game itself changes. Unless we speak about senseless achievements like "played for 5 hours" or "killed 100 biters" (which are really used for statistical purposes) such goals sometimes may need or benefit from adjustments.

[meganothing]

I think there may be merit to this line of thinking, but I do think there's a flaw with it: players can jack up all the resource patch stuff to maximum (or to a minimum, for Mining with determination concerns). If the idea is to have the achievements be obtained on an equal footing for all players, then the changes announced in this version's release notes will not achieve it (no pun intended).

Good point. Maybe the change to biter progression was made because the achievement has conditions specifically dealing with biters but none that depend **directly** on resource patch density.

[kovarex]

Hello,
regarding the achievements check bugfixes (or changes if you want to call it that way), I still believe the change makes sense.

In the past, there was always the rule of no biter/fight related achievement when you turn the peace mode on, as it basically doesn't make any sense. What kind of achievement is it to play without laser turrets for example, when no attack comes at all, as you have peaceful mode.

In the meantime, we added a lot of other options to configure the map settings, and we just didn't realize it breakes this logic, until one day not so long ago, someone in the office came to me and told me it is weird that they can get these fight achievements when they do "alternative peaceful mode", by turning off pollution, which isn't tracked.

Turning off polution, setting biters to be almost non existent, or making the attacks super small just makes these achievement non-sensual. There is no achievement in it, it just becomes a checkbox.

When I personally look at the speedruns, I find more value in it, when it is at least "remotely" comparable to normal play. What I mean is, that when I play with default settings, and finish the game in X hours, I can be like, woah, it is incredible they can finish the same thing in X/10 hours or faster, really something.

But if the way they play is, that they practically turn off biters for example, so they didn't have to deal with the problems I had to, it suddenly is something very different.

This could theoretically be applied also on things like resource generation, but I would say it is where I draw the line for now. Playing with more resources makes the game easier, but it doesn't completely remove some part of the gameplay.

[vark111]

So will you at least address the fact that none of these new rules are mentioned in the map generation screen, like they are for peaceful mode?


Also, at least according to this post: viewtopic.php?t=128202

Deathworld also disables achievements. I can't imagine that's an intended effect?

[Warger]

Hello,
regarding the achievements check bugfixes (or changes if you want to call it that way), I still believe the change makes sense.

In the past, there was always the rule of no biter/fight related achievement when you turn the peace mode on, as it basically doesn't make any sense. What kind of achievement is it to play without laser turrets for example, when no attack comes at all, as you have peaceful mode.

In the meantime, we added a lot of other options to configure the map settings, and we just didn't realize it breakes this logic, until one day not so long ago, someone in the office came to me and told me it is weird that they can get these fight achievements when they do "alternative peaceful mode", by turning off pollution, which isn't tracked.

Turning off polution, setting biters to be almost non existent, or making the attacks super small just makes these achievement non-sensual. There is no achievement in it, it just becomes a checkbox.

When I personally look at the speedruns, I find more value in it, when it is at least "remotely" comparable to normal play. What I mean is, that when I play with default settings, and finish the game in X hours, I can be like, woah, it is incredible they can finish the same thing in X/10 hours or faster, really something.

But if the way they play is, that they practically turn off biters for example, so they didn't have to deal with the problems I had to, it suddenly is something very different.

This could theoretically be applied also on things like resource generation, but I would say it is where I draw the line for now. Playing with more resources makes the game easier, but it doesn't completely remove some part of the gameplay.

Thank you for giving us an explanation to why this change was implemented. I understand the thought process behind it, and while it is not the answer i was hoping for it is one that i expected.
My only concern/request would be to polish these restrictions a bit more. in my opinion it doesn't make a lot of sense that the achievements are disabled in rail world and death world, both widely used map presets.
Thank you for working on making this amazing game constantly better.

[thuejk]

So in the interest of not changing 100% speedruns in the future again: Is it on purpose that the pollution "absorption modifier" is still allowed to be raised to 400%? That odd one out setting still does doesn't invalidate achievements, but will make biters vastly easier to deal with.

[protocol_1903]

So in the interest of not changing 100% speedruns in the future again: Is it on purpose that the pollution "absorption modifier" is still allowed to be raised to 400%? That odd one out setting still does doesn't invalidate achievements, but will make biters vastly easier to deal with.

I agree here... There are quite a few non-breaking map settings that still force the player to play against biters, but technically disable achievements... I would agree that they should be fixed.

[toths]

Thank you for giving us an explanation to why this change was implemented. I understand the thought process behind it, and while it is not the answer i was hoping for it is one that i expected.
My only concern/request would be to polish these restrictions a bit more. in my opinion it doesn't make a lot of sense that the achievements are disabled in rail world and death world, both widely used map presets.
Thank you for working on making this amazing game constantly better.

As a viewer speedruns and a player since 1.0 I also wanted to second this opinion. If the achievements are only obtainable with close to default settings, that's fine but should be communicated to the player better on game creation as the current UI is confusing for new players who may not even realize until tens (hundreds) of hours into a run that some are even disabled.

Personally I think it would be easiest if achievements were only possible on Default Settings, if a standard is what you're looking to enforce then that one makes the most sense to me as the changes in 2.0 have made Rail world and Death World obsolete as we now have Fulgora (the Rail World themed planet) and Gleba (the Death World themed planet) in Space Age. Making the achievement requirements consistent would be a great challenge as then the only variable would be map generation for people trying to get them all.

Great game as always, thanks for all the hard work.

[AntiElitz]

Hello,
regarding the achievements check bugfixes (or changes if you want to call it that way), I still believe the change makes sense.

In the past, there was always the rule of no biter/fight related achievement when you turn the peace mode on, as it basically doesn't make any sense. What kind of achievement is it to play without laser turrets for example, when no attack comes at all, as you have peaceful mode.

In the meantime, we added a lot of other options to configure the map settings, and we just didn't realize it breakes this logic, until one day not so long ago, someone in the office came to me and told me it is weird that they can get these fight achievements when they do "alternative peaceful mode", by turning off pollution, which isn't tracked.

Turning off polution, setting biters to be almost non existent, or making the attacks super small just makes these achievement non-sensual. There is no achievement in it, it just becomes a checkbox.

When I personally look at the speedruns, I find more value in it, when it is at least "remotely" comparable to normal play. What I mean is, that when I play with default settings, and finish the game in X hours, I can be like, woah, it is incredible they can finish the same thing in X/10 hours or faster, really something.

But if the way they play is, that they practically turn off biters for example, so they didn't have to deal with the problems I had to, it suddenly is something very different.

This could theoretically be applied also on things like resource generation, but I would say it is where I draw the line for now. Playing with more resources makes the game easier, but it doesn't completely remove some part of the gameplay.

Hey,
I respect that you enjoy Default Settings runs — honestly, so do I. That kind of playthrough is tough, rewarding, and absolutely has its place. And for anyone looking for speedruns that match that experience, they’re already out there. There’s a full 25h 100% Default Settings run on Twitch, a Default Settings Space Age WR in 8:48:57, Multiplayer Default in 1:28:36, and a solid classic DS run in 2:22:43. These exist, they’re public, and they already deliver the exact experience you described and would enjoy watching. So that kind of run doesn’t need to be forced into other categories.

In Factorio speedrunning, categories grow naturally based on what people enjoy running. No one dictates how they should evolve, when something catches on, it becomes a category, and when it doesn’t, it fades out. The three main ones that have stuck around are Any%, Default Settings, and 100%. Any% focuses on raw execution, allows peace mode and set seeds. Default Settings is full survival, no map gen changes, random map. And 100% is where the goal is to get all achievements in a single run, using blueprint import, a random map, and historically with settings like pollution spreading off, expansion disabled, and minor map tweaks — it has been on the peaceful side due to its length. It sits somewhere between a long-term planning challenge and a speedrun marathon, and that’s why people have enjoyed it for years.

Now with this new achievement logic, that version of 100% no longer works. It isn’t truly Default Settings, but it’s also no longer the 100% category we’ve been running and enjoying— and it becomes very close to 100% Default Settings, which has been around for a while but has always seen the least interest by far. In our recent Space Age survey, 100% Default Settings came in lowest at 1.24 average interest (compared to 1.78 for regular 100%, and 2.26 for Any%). So the issue is: the category people enjoy gets pushed closer to a version they already chose not to run — and it’s unclear what the benefit of that is.

I agree that the fix makes sense technically. It aligns better with the logic of what achievements should represent, and I get the idea behind it. But usually the reason to fix something like this is to make the game better and more enjoyable for people. And in this case, the gap that existed in the logic ended up being something a whole community genuinely enjoyed. Fixing it doesn’t actually make the experience better for anyone, it just removes that small corner where people found a playstyle that worked for them and that they loved.

That’s why I’m asking for a reconsideration. This isn’t about clinging to an exploit or rejecting change. We’ve been fine with dozens of updates that made runs harder like the mineship removal, which I personally enjoyed, but never asked to be reverted. We’ve always adapted.

But this time, adapting means watching a whole category disappear. That’s a very different kind of change.

As a small comparison: Celeste is one of the most respected speedrun games out there, and when runners discovered a movement bug called corner boost, the devs didn’t patch it. They saw how much the community valued it, and embraced it. They even included it intentionally in the DLC. That’s the kind of trust that can make a game really special to a group of players.

So I’ll end by just asking: who benefits from this fix? Because if the goal is to make the game more enjoyable, this time it might actually be better left alone. The people who used it are the ones who care the most and most of them aren’t happy about it.

[Rubydrageon]

So I’ll end by just asking: who benefits from this fix? Because if the goal is to make the game more enjoyable, this time it might actually be better left alone. The people who used it are the ones who care the most and most of them aren’t happy about it.

I second this. I get that the changes make the behavior more technically correct. But I doubt many people unintentionally got an achievement and were sad that it was too easy, especially since the casually hard achievements are not the biter related ones. I also doubt that anyone abusing the previous behavior to get achievements more easily wouldn't find a way to cheese them just as easily in a new version, e.g., afking on a server where others play and get them. And if someone wants to cheese achievements, why not let them? It's not PvP, no one else is hurt.

[Tertius]

As spectator, I've always felt the map creation settings speedrunners chose as "cheating". They're running a challenge, no question, but they're easing up the game and playing just a part of it, not the full game. A 100% speedrun without having to actually deal with enemies isn't really 100%, isn't the real game, the achievements not as much worth as if the game settings were fully default. It's still a tough challenge, but there is something missing. You can do better than that.

That's just my point of view. I would honor every speedrunner who will take the challenge and finishes 100% WITH enemy settings. Without easier settings than the default. In my opinion, there is definitely a place for speedruns on default settings. Without cheating some challenge away. That's the true spirit.

So I encourage the speedrunners to archive the current runs and start a new epoch.

[Chindraba]

... Yes, I consider it that much of a course change in the game.

I've just got to yell at someone, anyone.

.......


What on Earth or Nauvis, in Vanilla or not, on Steam or not, is so important about achievements that it requires any attempts at making things equal?

Ok, so this change is emotionally so important to you that you need to yell at someone, but I assume it is your rational being that seems to be asking what is so important about achievements.

I am siding with your rational self by the way. Unless you are in some juvenile group that actually compares achievements (??) you would know you have that achievement even if the game says something else. So for yourself or your self esteem this should make no difference.

Achievements are a nice way to set a goal for yourself (speedrunner or not). And actually sometimes a reset gives one even a new opportunity for achieving a goal again. But **in general** goals worth anything can't be set in stone for eternity when the game itself changes. Unless we speak about senseless achievements like "played for 5 hours" or "killed 100 biters" (which are really used for statistical purposes) such goals sometimes may need or benefit from adjustments.

The text of the 'yelling' was about 'bug fix' versus 'change'. The line

If you must keep this change, please at least label it a "change", preferably a major change. It sure ain't no 'bug fix'.

probably gives that point away. The 'emotional' component there is anti-Shakespear, what's in a name does matter.

The ability to reset achievements is one I have used many times. Every time I failed in my 100% run I did a reset. In my current game, aiming for all but the 40-hour and 100-hour badges, I reset every time I restart, what ever the reason. (Most restarts are to be under the current change, most recent was when they moved some research - quantum processors I think.) Of course, once the "perfect game" was rendered imperfect, I did a reset as well.

I don't need to 'compare' my achievements to other players, or to the percentages of players with them listed in Steam. There are too many ways to 'cheese' them that how someone got them, 'earned' or not, is unknowable, and makes a comparison pointless. I can, however, be proud of what I've done, and display my achievements knowing exactly what settings were used, or not, to earn them.

On that thread, I was actually surprised by what was allowed, and used as the default, by the speedrun rules for a 100% game. I ain't that good, and never will be, but I did look at their techniques to try finding clues to how I could launch a rocket in 8 hours. To flip that around, at least with a speedrunner's achievements you do know what the settings were, and what they did, and did not, do. They have to post video of the complete game and the savegame file, where the settings can be inspected.

Even after Kovarex's post above, I still think it's a significant course correction, and do not completely agree with it. I'll take whatever the results are, however. It is their game and it is always their choice to make it, and change it, any way and any time they choose. I will remain firm that it is not a bug fix. There is a change they did not make, and probably should, which would be a bug fix. In the Space Age map gen settings turning the enemy base size below default disables some achievements. Yet, only for Nauvis bases. You can drop Gleba base size to 17%, the minimum available, and still earn the ones disabled by the Nauvis base size setting. That seems like a bug, or oversight at the least. A change to correct that would, imho, qualify as a bug fix.

My ultimate plan remains uncertain. I can do another restart, of the game and the achievements, once a new stable is out, and hope the rules don't change again. (Just a minor argument for making such changes in a major update such as 2.1.) Or I can lock the version to 2.0.43 and finish my run under the rules I started with. The game is mostly default anyway, though I do like the trees visually. Of course, there's always the option to just cheese it 100% and get the badge for everyone to see, knowing full well myself that it's as worthless as broken clam shells. It seems to work for the Galaxy of Fame, maybe that's the way to go. After all, I too know how to use the editor and create what I would rather not work to build.

/shrug

[thedoh]

As spectator, I've always felt the map creation settings speedrunners chose as "cheating". They're running a challenge, no question, but they're easing up the game and playing just a part of it, not the full game. A 100% speedrun without having to actually deal with enemies isn't really 100%, isn't the real game, the achievements not as much worth as if the game settings were fully default. It's still a tough challenge, but there is something missing. You can do better than that.

That's just my point of view. I would honor every speedrunner who will take the challenge and finishes 100% WITH enemy settings. Without easier settings than the default. In my opinion, there is definitely a place for speedruns on default settings. Without cheating some challenge away. That's the true spirit.

So I encourage the speedrunners to archive the current runs and start a new epoch.

It is interesting to point out that AntiElitz lost a world record because he failed to deal with biters in one of his 100% runs. The run was so close to a world record that we had to count frames (he was 166 milliseconds short - ten ticks of the game). He chose to let biters eat one of his outposts making green circuits rather than defend, and this loss of production caused him to fall just shy. To say that [100%] speedrunners don't deal with enemies is not a fair characterization.

[Xoriun]

As spectator, I've always felt the map creation settings speedrunners chose as "cheating". They're running a challenge, no question, but they're easing up the game and playing just a part of it, not the full game. A 100% speedrun without having to actually deal with enemies isn't really 100%, isn't the real game, the achievements not as much worth as if the game settings were fully default. It's still a tough challenge, but there is something missing. You can do better than that.

That's just my point of view. I would honor every speedrunner who will take the challenge and finishes 100% WITH enemy settings. Without easier settings than the default. In my opinion, there is definitely a place for speedruns on default settings. Without cheating some challenge away. That's the true spirit.

So I encourage the speedrunners to archive the current runs and start a new epoch.

I don't know if that was intended, but this comes across very condescending. There certainly are categories where no preset is changed, that is called Default Settings (DS) and is one of the more (or even most) challenging categories and has always one of the most favorite categories for both runners and viewers. But 100% just takes so much time (the 1.1 WR stands at 4h12min with the 10th place already at 5h52min), for SA there has only been a single submission yet with !! 23!! hours or raw game time. It is not that 100%DS is "too hard" for speedrunners, it's just too long for most to enjoy.

Also, as AntiElitz mentioned above, the categories for Factorio speedrunning are not set in stone but rather develop fluently according to what runners want to play. So if you feel like were are making life easy for us by tweaking the settings, maybe run your "correct" settings instead of calling us cheaters.

[Nataly171]

Perhaps it may be worth considering making these changes to the achievements themselves rather than the solution in place currently. I do definitely see the argument that launching a rocket without building laser turrets doesn't really mean much if you don't need to build any turrets in the first place. So perhaps the achievement itself should be adjusted to clarify that: "launch a rocket without building any laser turrets or decreasing enemy settings," or something to that effect. This is an incomplete idea but I think with some extra thought it could alleviate the issue with clarity.

As for the speedruns, I'm not really sure what to think. Speedrunners will adapt either way, and chances are some will choose to continue playing 100% with the nerfed enemy settings used previously. In this case if you are determined to make the change, it would be good in my opinion to still allow this type of run to exist, perhaps with a hidden legacy achievements setting as suggested before in this thread, or by adding special indication to achievements that have technically been achieved, but weren't granted due to changes in world settings.

[Quadehar]

Ok, my turn to throw something out there i guess.

First of all, to all those saying "their game, their decision", i agree, but that's not the point. Hearing the voices of concern emerging from a decision is something that too few game editors do, i won't bother providing examples you all know what i'm talking about. Ultimately, if the only point you can make in favor of the change is that "well i can do it", you're doing it wrong.

Secondly, i HAVE to mention that one of the things that bugs me the most into all this is how this change was handled. To carelessly throw it in the bugfix section of a mundane fix update is at the very least a very unfortunate oversight. I mean, Wube knows about speedrunners, they do a good portion of the bug report (and regularly piss you of at the same occasion), you invited some of them at the space age launch lan event, i can't imagine a world where in almost 10 years nobody at Wube ever heard about how the hundo category was handled. Saying that you "discovered the exploit recently" i just can't buy it. Wether that is true or not, the feeling is there. It was obvious from the first sight that this single line would ignite the thread. And even for casual play that changes a lots of things. So sending the message of "well it's not a big deal" is not the cleverest one.

You didn't even bother to update the UI to make it clear of what options impact what achievements, and you didn't even bother to check all the settings to at least make it somewhat consistent : turning down Nauvis bases affect this but not Gleba one ? Absorption modifier at min 100% instead of max ? You can touch nothing pollution related but tweak absorbtion ? I mean, if you wanna make this a change, at least make it feel like a thoughtful decision, not something you discussed 5 minutes before pushing it to next release... Again, I absolutely don't know what really happened there, but the feeling is strong.

Now for the change in itself, i won't add anything to the speedrunning point of view, AntiElitz has wonderfully done it already.

But if I understood correctly, the key thing to this change was to make some achievements less pointless with some map changes. Ok, fair enough let's dive a bit deeper into it.
- I launch a new map. But i don't feel like fighting biters too early. It's not that i can't manage, it's just that i prefer them to attack a bit later because i largely prefer the factory thingy in factorio than the fighty thingy. So I increase the starting area a bit. 80h later i finished the game. Yay, new PB. But it won't count. Because i gained 30 minutes in the beginning by not having to take the time to destroy bases near my starting area. Ok i guess, let's try again.
- Oh this map looks great ! It has all the patches i want. And is fairly easily defendable. But it's in the desert, and the nearest forest is a bit far. Well, let's just tweak that a bit up, i just don't wanna make 5km anytime I need wood. It's desert anyway so biters will certainly be painful anyway. Oh guess what, apparently that was too cheaty to earn an achievement too. Next time i'll just look at the forest and up the patches instead, that looks allowed. Or reroll one hour more to get a map that suits me instead of speding 5 minutes tweaking an existing one for the exact same output. Well let's try again.
- I always have struggle with biters late game. Not because i can't defend, generally i build a wall with all sorts of protection behind. It's just that when i make artillery, it triggers all the biters in the map because they respond to the attack. Well fair enough i guess, but what bugs me is every now and then they make an expansion base which triggers all of it again, and it's kinda laggy when it happens. Well i'll just tone down a little bit the expansion. I mean, i won fair and square that territory, i even placed radars to watch them. It's not like i didn't do military at all. But once again it's a big nope.
- Fuck it, i'll run the death world setting then, if the key thing is to "earn" that achievement, surely beating this mode is good enough right ? Guess what... (note that this takes us back to the second point earlier, about the careless thingy).

And that's all from the top of my head. I'm pretty sure anyone can find a scenario where "wait, but i'm clearly more worthy than this dude who just afk'd in a multiplayer server, you can't be serious". All that to say that wanting to draw lines in this is diving straight into a rabbit hole i wouldn't dare approach closer than 500 meters, and with a lifeline.