Feedback on Space Age's overall design

[quineotio]

I described Fulgora as "funny", because it's completely different than everything else, and I found a trivial and perfectly working approach after a few minutes of thought. I don't know if it was some kind of intended approach, or just an oversight for a challenge intended to be more difficult.

I've deliberately avoided using bots on Fulgora because to me, it ruins the challenge. It's pretty complicated to route everything with belts, especially when you throw in quality. But it's forced me to think things through and learn new strategies, which is the thing I like about Factorio.

[Shulmeister]

I like the feeling of progression on Fulgora when you can revisit the planet late game with foundation. Elevated rails too making research for new strategy necessary and interesting

[quineotio]

I like the feeling of progression on Fulgora when you can revisit the planet late game with foundation. Elevated rails too making research for new strategy necessary and interesting

I've never used foundation - it comes too late and is too expensive. The problem is that I have to build a reasonably sized base on Fulgora already and essentially finish the game before I have access to it, which means that it has very marginal utility. If it came earlier I'd use foundation, but as it stands I've already finished Fulgora before I even have the option. It's similar to what I noted about stack inserters above - I'd like to use them on Gleba, but you only get them after you've built your base on Gleba.

[Premu]

I like the feeling of progression on Fulgora when you can revisit the planet late game with foundation. Elevated rails too making research for new strategy necessary and interesting

I've never used foundation - it comes too late and is too expensive. The problem is that I have to build a reasonably sized base on Fulgora already and essentially finish the game before I have access to it, which means that it has very marginal utility. If it came earlier I'd use foundation, but as it stands I've already finished Fulgora before I even have the option. It's similar to what I noted about stack inserters above - I'd like to use them on Gleba, but you only get them after you've built your base on Gleba.

For just "finishing" the game you don't need foundations. If you want to go towards a megabase, these might be really useful, though. Building space on Fulgora is pretty restricted, and extending your base from something around 100 SPM to values in the 1000s means you have to increase it in size, too.

[Tertius]

I've deliberately avoided using bots on Fulgora because to me, it ruins the challenge. It's pretty complicated to route everything with belts, especially when you throw in quality. But it's forced me to think things through and learn new strategies, which is the thing I like about Factorio.

Are you sure the intended challenge is to use belts at all costs? Consider this could be the challenge where it's explicitly expected you switch your brain to bot usage, because its really tedious to use belts.

I feel accomplishment, when I find the most simple solution for a given task. I'm thinking hard to find the most simple solution that solves the task. It's not just a technical challenge to build something, it's also an optimization challenge for me to find the most simple one from the possible solutions. You might argue bots are always the most simple solution, but it's not clear how bots scale with really big setups and with the game engine (UPS), so it's always the question of this or that. For short distance, bots have incredible throughput, so use bots if you need this. For super long distance and just occasional throughput, for example a perimeter defense wall, they have incredible flexibility, so use bots if you need this. Or if you build a quick&dirty temporary production. But for medium distance and fixed continuous high throughput item flow, belts seem the best choice.

I ignored quality so far, however as far as I've seen it so far, every quality tier is a whole world on its own, where you switch from one world to the next by using quality modules. So bot usage in combination with quality seems even better than already, because a bot is able to carry items of arbitrary quality to arbitrary destinations, so you don't need to hardcode quality item flows with belts duplicated for all 5 qualities.

I don't know if you looked at my small video above, but in this setup, I didn't just throw in a multitude of bots. It's a design with several iterations. Placement of chests and storage chest filters is part of the design to minimize the distance bots have to fly. Chests for high throughput items have a carefully chosen location.

I've never used foundation - it comes too late and is too expensive.

The same for me. When they're unlocked, you don't need them any more. It mentioned this concept of late tech unlocks in my original post. There are more technologies that come so late you will not really use them, since you already built without. They seem to be designed for scaled up and megabase use. Which is a pity, in my opinion, because they're useful items and should be available for a larger part of factory builders.

[quineotio]

Are you sure the intended challenge is to use belts at all costs?

Lol, I didn't say "intended challenge ... at all costs"

I do use bots for various things. I use it for malls when I'm making all the fidgety endgame stuff that you don't need many of, and the delivery of certain low throughput items that I don't want sitting on belts, or when I want to deliver something across a pre-existing build and it's not worth refactoring. But for me, bots bypass an interesting routing puzzle. With quality for example, finding a belt setup that efficiently sorts all the things is quite a challenge, whereas doing it with bots is basically just copy pasting. I also enjoy watching all the things get routed to all the different spots, which you can't really see with bots - it's just a swarm.

And I find that you get to know the ins and outs of the game better when you restrict yourself to belts. I've learned a lot about splitter usage in SA that I wouldn't have discovered had I just stuck to bots. Gleba is a good example of this - I've learned a lot about how to route things and manage all the different items and loops and different sides of the belt, and this wouldn't be necessary had I just used bots.

I love finding the most simple way to do things with belts. It really forces you to understand the problems you're trying to solve and it feels like an achievement when you come up with an elegant solution.

I feel accomplishment, when I find the most simple solution for a given task. I'm thinking hard to find the most simple solution that solves the task.

Me too, except that I feel like bots kinda bypass the game if you overuse them.

I ignored quality so far,

It's interesting, although I have a number of issues with it. As I noted in a previous post, it's basically useless (or worse than that - a trap) before you get recyclers. And it's a bit annoying that you have to account for every level of quality right from the beginning... unless you use bots. Like, you could set everything up to cater to uncommon and rare, but when you eventually unlock epic everything will jam.

In my current playthrough I'm doing quality all the way on Nauvis and Fulgora. There are a bunch of things you have to consider in addition to the normal factory, and I'm enjoying it overall. I don't know how a new player would ever deal with it though - it's a catastrophe for anyone who doesn't know that they're doing. This is one area where it's tempting to just use bots, but as I said above it kinda trivializes the challenge for me. Also, there are certain things it's harder to do if you use bots - like prioritization. With bots, they just deliver evenly across all requests, whereas with belts you can send to where you want.

I don't know if you looked at my small video above

I did see it. I also enjoy the optimizing part of the game, which is why I find it a bit annoying that certain tools come so late into a playthrough. Like, I've already optimized my Fulgora base before I even get access to foundation, or stack inserters on Gleba etc. There seems to be an emphasis in SA on refactoring your factories when you get new stuff, but it's not really practical to do this. If you know in advance you can plan ahead (like with higher levels of quality), but it's a bit annoying to have to design a factory around things you won't acquire for a hundred hours.

They seem to be designed for scaled up and megabase use. Which is a pity, in my opinion, because they're useful items and should be available for a larger part of factory builders.

This. And I like building big, except you can't really build big unless you tear down what you've already built, and you need a decent factory on 5 surfaces, plus space platforms, to even get all the tech. I've finished two playthroughs now and each time the thought of "building a megabase" was too much. I prefered 1.0, where you got everything from your starter base, and then you could use all the tools right from the start to build big.

For just "finishing" the game you don't need foundations. If you want to go towards a megabase, these might be really useful, though. Building space on Fulgora is pretty restricted, and extending your base from something around 100 SPM to values in the 1000s means you have to increase it in size, too.

In my last playthrough I was at about 120k espm (though not sustained) on my expanded "starter base". I did build fairly big for a starter base, but quality, stack inserters, fast belts and biolabs can go far. There was nothing left for me to really do at this point, and I already had 3 smaller bases on Fulgora. I wish foundation was earlier so I had an incentive to use it, because as it stands, UPS is already a consideration before I even have the opportunity to research it.

[Shulmeister]

I've never used foundation - it comes too late and is too expensive.

I'm suprised because to me they come around beginning of late game, when you have unlocked all tech and you no longer in early game. Besides "expensive" means very little in late game, when you just have to scale up the production.

I consider i'm still early game when i don't have access to all planets, because to me it takes less than a week and games can last months.

I guess not everyone has the same playstyle.

[quineotio]

I'm suprised because to me they come around beginning of late game, when you have unlocked all tech and you no longer in early game.

I've already passed the point where I would use foundation before I get it - I've already built big enough and researched far enough that I consider myself finished. I could theoretically "rush" for foundation, but I consider several weeks to be too large an investment before I can start playing the way I want to play. And exporting foundation from Aquilo doesn't appeal to me either - it's also too big an investment for something I don't technically need. It basically just means I don't touch it, because even though I would like to try building a larger Fulgora base, it's not worth my time.

So basically, part of the game is locked off for me. The effort vs reward isn't worth it as it currently stands. As I said in a post above, in my last playthrough I was already over 100k science and into the 20s for infinite research without foundation, so there was marginal utility to building a big Fulgora base at that point - and also I was already getting close to the UPS cap when my promethium ship was running. I would have had to tear down my already working factory to do it.

[Tertius]

I've already passed the point where I would use foundation before I get it - I've already built big enough and researched far enough that I consider myself finished. I could theoretically "rush" for foundation, but I consider several weeks to be too large an investment before I can start playing the way I want to play.

I discovered I probably planned and built too big from the start. It took much longer to finish what I planned than to wait for research to finish. So at all time, my research was finished and idle with some infinite tech, and what I was waiting for was building a big factory. Not actually producing the machines but provide space, organize supply and infrastructure and all this.
This way I was always behind tech - I wasn't able to proceed with new research, because my current buildings on the current planet wasn't yet finished.

In my next playthrough I will probably put more emphasis to just unlock all tech with as primitive and ad hoc factories as possible, and just the barest minimum of science production. Just enough science to not starve to death while waiting for the 2000 and 3000 science researches to finish.
Then rebuild everything with a solid layout. Not just scale up, but completely rebuild. This time with all the tech unlocked. Currently, I put emphasis to build a perfected factory on each planet with the then current tech. I probably wasted (or spent) too much time with that.

[quineotio]

In my next playthrough I will probably put more emphasis to just unlock all tech with as primitive and ad hoc factories as possible, and just the barest minimum of science production.

It puts the game in a weird place though doesn't it? It's a lot of hoops you have to jump through. I've considered just making stuff in the editor, but it's not the same as doing it in an actual run. I just hope the devs open up the game a bit in the future. The way the tech is currently arranged pushes you through the game, but there's nothing at the end, so it's in a weird place where you sorta have to NOT do too much in getting to the end so that you can then go back.

Like, the logical thing is to build a strong industrial base to support your interstellar expansion, but the most fun comes only after you've expanded interstellar. Which is why I said in the first post that SA design is cursed. If it's an adventure game, the ending sucks. If it's a sandbox, you get the tools too late.

[NineNine]

You have really a lot of complaints about the game, and it sounds like you just don't like it. Perhaps you need a break from the game?

[Shulmeister]

I've already passed the point where I would use foundation before I get it

What do you mean ?

[quineotio]

What do you mean ?

I explained in the post.

"I've already built big enough and researched far enough that I consider myself finished."

I'd like to use foundation when building my Fulgora base, but I have to build my Fulgora base before I get foundation. Or alternatively, the reason I'd want to expand on Fulgora is to do more research, but by the time I get foundation I've already done most of the research.

So the point in time when I need it I don't have it, and by the time I have it I don't need it.

[Shulmeister]

I'd like to use foundation when building my Fulgora base, but I have to build my Fulgora base before I get foundation. Or alternatively, the reason I'd want to expand on Fulgora is to do more research, but by the time I get foundation I've already done most of the research.

So the point in time when I need it I don't have it, and by the time I have it I don't need it.

I'd like to have tech tree unlocking "new and better" things, if you want to only go to fulgora once and don't upgrade your factory and never return that's a playstyle i think is not very common.

[quineotio]

if you want to only go to fulgora once and don't upgrade your factory and never return that's a playstyle i think is not very common.

I do go back. I build a small starter base and then a bigger base sufficient to carry me through the game. And I do this before Aquilo.

[Shulmeister]

I do go back. I build a small starter base and then a bigger base sufficient to carry me through the game. And I do this before Aquilo.

You can't use cryo plant in Fulgora before Aquilo though, i wouldn't consider myself having "finished" anything without the best things.

Which is why I said in the first post that SA design is cursed. If it's an adventure game, the ending sucks. If it's a sandbox, you get the tools too late.

I think if you get all the tools at the beginning the adventure is boring, it is exciting when you unlock new ways to do what you used to do but more efficiently.

[quineotio]

You can't use cryo plant in Fulgora before Aquilo though

This is illustrative of the problem - I can't do X until I do Y. I think there's too much of this. I think the tech tree is too restrictive. Or alternatively, the game is too short and the ending too easy. One or both of these.

I think if you get all the tools at the beginning the adventure is boring

Yes, but also getting them too late in a sandbox is tedious. The point I'm trying to make is that I think SA has problems BOTH as a sandbox AND as an adventure. So I think it needs to be way less restrictive with tech, and/or longer.

The easiest solution is to make the tech tree less restrictive (and I'd like to see this anyway), but I'd also take several years more work on new content.

[quineotio]

Let me give you another example. Here is the way my thought process goes on Gleba:

I need the science packs, which means I need bioflux, which means I need to harvest both plants. But I then need to launch the science, which means I need to build every Gleba recipe, which means I need to build the entire factory before it does anything.

The alternative is that I import the rocket stuff and essentially skip Gleba (by building only the science packs on site).

Then, after I'm building and exporting the science packs (and carbon fiber), I'm essentially finished with Gleba and never need to touch it again. Which is a slight exaggeration because I still import bot rockets, bioflux and stack inserters, but it's essentially true that building and exporting the science pack is the beginning and end of Gleba. There's no need to even turn the factory on until it's capable of producing the final product.

As an aside, Gleba is very punishing to design in game so I do it in the editor then bring in a blueprint, which means that my in-game time on Gleba is probably only a few hours.

And seeing as I need Gleba science BEFORE I get stack inserters, I CAN'T use stack inserters on Gleba, because I have to build my entire base before I get them. Now technically, you could argue, this isn't true, because I could import stuff until I research them, or build really small until I get stack inserters, or build a "megabase" after I get them. But in practice you don't really have the option to use stack inserters on Gleba unless you go out of your way to do something that is less convenient.

So I think to myself, "what's the easiest way to solve this problem"?

And the answers I come up with are, in descending order of ease:

1. Allow the biolab to be built on Gleba
2. Allow overgrowth soil > Gleba recipes in Nauvis
3. Add a bunch more content to Gleba after the science pack

Now apply this to quality, recyclers, foundation, advanced asteroid processing, everything from Aquilo etc.

[Shulmeister]

Yes, but also getting them too late in a sandbox is tedious. The point I'm trying to make is that I think SA has problems BOTH as a sandbox AND as an adventure. So I think it needs to be way less restrictive with tech, and/or longer.

The easiest solution is to make the tech tree less restrictive (and I'd like to see this anyway), but I'd also take several years more work on new content.

I disagree with your point, you just have to use mod if you don't want to have to unlock things that seem pretty obvious you can start with every technology available, this way you can build a base that make science for no purpose at all if you think it's fun.