Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Moderator: ickputzdirwech

Ralfinator
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:37 pm
Contact:

Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by Ralfinator »

TL;DR
There should be a way to fill up space platforms while having control over how many "surplus" items are stored, without wasting any rockets and without having to drop overflow back down to the planet.
What?
I'll have to describe my understanding of the status quo before describing what I think could be improved.

Let's take delivering explosives via spaceship as an example. These have a stack size of 50 and a rocket capacity of 500. If I now set a request for 500 explosives, and the space station has 300 explosives loaded, it will request another 500, ending up with 800. That's 300 surplus items. So far, this is entirely expected. Now, let's say I want to make sure I never have more than 200 surplus items (since I need that space in the space platform for something else). Which options do I have?

Option 1: Set a logistic request upper limit of 700. For the case described above (300 explosives present), that will mean it will still request 500 explosives, and then it will send 100 of them back down to the ground. That has two downsides: (a) it waits until there are actually 500 explosives present on the planet, even though we don't need that many; (b) the planet will have all these unneeded explosives just sitting around afterwards. It also seems, frankly, silly to send up items only to have them immediately be dropped down again.

Option 2: Set the "custom minimum payload" for explosives to 200. That will ensure it can never overshoot by more than 200. However, it also wastes rockets. Here's why: let's say there are 200 explosives present in the space station (and as before, 500 requested). The game will now create a rocket requesting the missing 300 explosives. However, once there are 200 explosives loaded, the rocket launches immediately, without waiting for the remaining 100! (In other words, it seems like there is hidden state, not shown in the UI, attached with a rocket request: even when the UI says the rocket requests 300 items, it may launch already with 200 items.) So now we have 400 explosives in the spaceship, still 100 short of the requested 500. Then, another rocket gets dispatched to deliver another 200. So, we used 2 rockets do send up 400 explosives, when that would fit in a single rocket and anyway we only needed 300 explosives.

I first thought the behavior in option 2 was a bug; also see the discussion here. But it seems this is deliberate. So this is a suggestion to change the behavior of "custom minimum payload" or add a sort of toggle to switch between different behaviors.

Here's what I would ideally like to happen when there are 200 explosives present on the spaceship: the game sees that 300 are missing. It therefore waits until the planet has 300 explosives available, and then creates a rocket that requests 300 explosives, waits until the rocket is full, and launches it.

In general, if a space station requests an amount R for some item, the rocket can fit C, the custom minimum payload is set to P, and there are N (> 0) items missing, what I think should ideally happen is:
1. compute the request size S by clamping N into the range [P, C] (i.e., S := max(P, min(C, N))).
2. wait until there are S items available in the planet's logistic network
3. create a rocket that requests S items
4. wait until the rocket contains S items
5. launch the rocket

With this scheme, there is no longer any "launching early" of rockets, they always wait until the computed request is satisfied. However, the request size is computed by taking into account the custom minimum payload: specifically, the custom minimum payload becomes the minimum request size.

Now, I can imagine one downside with this proposal. Presumably, the reason that rockets currently can launch "early" when a custom minimum payload is set is to deal with the situation where the planet just doesn't have enough of an item. I think in that case the spaceship should just wait, but maybe there are situations where it is desirable to partially satisfy a request (though I have not encountered such a situation). This could be done in the above system in different ways:
- Instead of waiting until S items are available on the planet, just wait until P items are available; then set S as above but instead of C use an upper-bound of min(C,L) where L is the number of items available on the planet. This still does not have any dynamic "launching early"; we just further take into account the logistic network situation when computing the request size.
- Or, alternatively, instead of setting the "launch early" threshold to P as it is now, it could be set to max(P,L), therefore ensuring that we do not launch early when the planet has enough items.
Why?
I would like to not waste up to 10 stacks of "spare" space on surplus explosives, but I also don't want to waste rockets nor do I want to pointlessly send items up that will be immediately dropped down again. Currently, I think that is impossible; above I have described a way to achieve this.
fencingsquirrel
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed May 11, 2022 2:12 am
Contact:

Re: Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by fencingsquirrel »

Unless there's some technical reason, I don't see why this wouldn't be an improvement. That said, is auto-sending surplus back down really such a big deal? Planet-side cargo bays are trivial to add and I'm assuming if the landing pad is near the rockets, they'll take from pad first, preventing an accumulation of surplus stuff.
Arcus
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by Arcus »

So what happens when I have 499 explosives on the platform and a request of 500? Does it just launch a rocket with a payload 1 explosive? And then another rocket the instant the number drops below 500 again?
fencingsquirrel wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 11:46 pm Unless there's some technical reason, I don't see why this wouldn't be an improvement. That said, is auto-sending surplus back down really such a big deal? Planet-side cargo bays are trivial to add and I'm assuming if the landing pad is near the rockets, they'll take from pad first, preventing an accumulation of surplus stuff.
It would be a lot worse than the current system which has hysteresis built-in. All to save a bit of cargo space, which isn't really at a premium.
Muche
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1006
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by Muche »

If you configure the minimum to 1, then yes. It will launch a rocket with one explosive.
If you configure it to 1 and 500 explosives are requested, 500 will be launched.
If you configure it to 200 and 1 explosive is requested, 200 will be launched.
Arcus
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by Arcus »

Ah, I see, I misunderstood what the suggestion was about.
Ralfinator
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by Ralfinator »

Indeed, the proposal will never launch a rocket with less than the explicitly set minimum. This is done by the step that "clamps N into the range [P, C]", ensuring that S is never less than P (custom minimum payload) and never more than C (rocket capacity). So this has hysteresis built in as well.
Factoruser
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by Factoruser »

It needs much bigger changes, see viewtopic.php?t=126315. At least, the rocket silo should have circuit network start conditions.
eugenekay
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:14 am
Contact:

Re: Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by eugenekay »

I understand what the request is, but…. why? What “puzzle” or gameplay enhancement does solving this particular problem bring? For Bulk automated movements you should factor the Rocket Capacity and Inventory Sizes to begin with…. They’re not THAT big for the chest size, especially with Quality.

If you are critically short on Cargo Bay space you can just throw the Excess overboard (controlled by a Circuit to stay above the Requested amount, of course), rather than trying to use a Cargo Pod contraption to return it to the Planet the efficient way. :twisted: There are always more Explosives to be crafted after all….
Ralfinator
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Dynamic minimum payload for rocket delivery

Post by Ralfinator »

Factoruser wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 1:46 pm It needs much bigger changes, see viewtopic.php?t=126315. At least, the rocket silo should have circuit network start conditions.
That's a much bigger request than what I am asking for.
eugenekay wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 7:36 pm I understand what the request is, but…. why?
Because I think the game should let me avoid wasting resources. Generally it is pretty good at that.

Also, the current behavior of "custom minimum payload" is, I think, extremely rarely what one actually wants, and it is highly non-intuitive. I honestly originally though the game was buggy.
Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”