Cliff explosives alternative around blue science

[Milichip]

TL;DR
Add a new item "Chemical cliff melter" (with a better name) which would be a very expensive craft, have no bot automation, only destroy 1 cliff piece per item, and once placed on a cliff would take multiple minutes (or hours?) to dissolve the cliff, unlocked just before you start making blue science.



What?
At around the time you start getting pumpjacks, having a reseach for "cliff dissolution kit" could allow you to start getting rid of some cliffs.
The recipe would be very expensive, similar to landfill. As to the actual items in the recipe, I am not sure - maybe sulfuric acid, maybe explosives, maybe sulfur.
Bots would not be able to place these, they would only be manually placed.
Each kit would only destroy 1 cliff piece.
When placed on a cliff piece, the item would take 5 to 30 minutes (or more) to fully dissolve the cliff.

I have been flavoring its theme as a "chemical solvent" type of thing due to its timing of being just before blue science, but it could be branded as a timed explosive or a terraforming kit/machine instead -the functionality is what I'm after.



Why?
Multiple reasons:
- It feels silly that cliffs go from "a huge nuisance you can do absolutely nothing about" immediately to "completely trivial" once you unlock cliff explosives, so having an intermediary step feels better.
- You may want to get rid of a single piece of cliff you thought you accounted for, and decide you want to put more effort into destroying it before it messes up the rest of your design even if it comes at a considerable cost of your time and maybe resources if it's a lot of cliff pieces.
- Going to Fulgora gives you elevated rails to deal with cliffs, going to Vulcanus gives you cliff explosives, going to Gleba -should- boost your landfill production (separate suggestion) to go into the ocean to avoid dealing with cliffs, but staying on Nauvis has 0 ways of dealing with cliffs, which feels bad if you wish to go for utility/production science.

[CyberCider]

- It feels silly that cliffs go from "a huge nuisance you can do absolutely nothing about" immediately to "completely trivial" once you unlock cliff explosives, so having an intermediary step feels better.
- Going to Fulgora gives you elevated rails to deal with cliffs

Elevated rails are unlocked on Nauvis, with purple science.

Also, I really wouldn't consider cliffs "a huge nuisance". They're much more manageable now than they were in 1.1.

[Milichip]

Elevated rails are unlocked on Nauvis, with purple science.

Oh, true, my bad. Still, it's purple science so it can be after space, so I still think this should be an alternative.
I do think elevated rails should be an unlock from Fulgora though, not necessarily via research but just landing there. Or landing there unlocking the research with only blue science.

And yeah, I get that cliffs are possible to work around. I just think having more counterplay/tools with appropriate costs is always better.

[Loup&Snoop]

Unlocking elevated rails with purple science makes sense. The cliff planet being needed for cliff explosives also makes sense. Vulcanus only has a few items unlocked by its actual research. The progression currently feels good. I don’t see a problem with the current situation.

[Milichip]

Unlocking elevated rails with purple science makes sense. The cliff planet being needed for cliff explosives also makes sense. Vulcanus only has a few items unlocked by its actual research. The progression currently feels good. I don’t see a problem with the current situation.

It's not that there's a problem, it's that it can be improved further. Having crappier but early cliff explosives would just be a nice option, that's all.

[MEOWMI]

Having crappier but early cliff explosives would just be a nice option, that's all.

You can do this in the form of a nuclear reactor. They explode if destroyed at higher than 900 degrees, and the explosion will destroy nearby cliffs.

[Milichip]

Having crappier but early cliff explosives would just be a nice option, that's all.

You can do this in the form of a nuclear reactor. They explode if destroyed at higher than 900 degrees, and the explosion will destroy nearby cliffs.

Sure, and nuclear rockets as well, but those are obviously not good alternatives.

[Gooberboi]

Seems like a good idea for a mod, just not in the base game.

[Kyralessa]

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Nanobots2

If this works the same way as the original Nanobots mod, it lets you use grenades or rockets (with nanobots) to destroy cliffs.

[Milichip]

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Nanobots2

If this works the same way as the original Nanobots mod, it lets you use grenades or rockets (with nanobots) to destroy cliffs.

Not at all, it's meant to be a much more expensive and crappier way of dealing with cliffs so that you have an option to get rid of a few before you get to vulcanus.
It would also allow you to get some quality of life (at a cost) while still going to Gleba and Fulgora first, or if you choose to stay and do yellow and purple science first.

[CyberCider]

Not at all, it's meant to be a much more expensive and crappier way of dealing with cliffs so that you have an option to get rid of a few before you get to vulcanus.
It would also allow you to get some quality of life (at a cost) while still going to Gleba and Fulgora first, or if you choose to stay and do yellow and purple science first.

Nukes are crappy and expensive, how come they don’t meet your criteria?

[Milichip]

Nukes are crappy and expensive, why do those not fit your criteria?

They take 5000 yellow and space science to research. If you have that much science, it is completely trivial to go to vulcanus and get cliff explosives in 30 minutes by just dropping all materials/machines you need, so they are not an early game alternative option.

Also, they leave a permanent mark on the terrain which I dislike.

Making a nuclear reactor and exploding it is also too expensive for how little cliffs it will destroy.

What's wrong with wanting a tool better suited to mend the gap?
We have pistols, which are useless as soon as you research military but makes the upgrade to a rifle feel better.
We have modular armor, which is crappy and gets way better, making you appreciate each slot a lot more on the new armors.
We also have tanks, which become pretty useless after spidertron.
Having intermediate yet weaker tools is a good thing, it lets you make the decision of holding off completely and just going for the upgrade straight away or commit to the crappier option for longer before upgrading. Their price is always appropriately cheaper, their downsides are other aspects entirely.

[CyberCider]

Nukes are crappy and expensive, why do those not fit your criteria?

They take 5000 yellow and space science to research. If you have that much science, it is completely trivial to go to vulcanus and get cliff explosives in 30 minutes by just dropping all materials/machines you need, so they are not an early game alternative option.

Also, they leave a permanent mark on the terrain which I dislike.

My bad, I was thinking of nuclear reactors but wrote nuclear bombs.

Also, early game? There is no need for cliff removal in “early game”. Just watch where they are on the map and don’t build towards them.

[Milichip]

My bad, I was thinking of nuclear reactors but wrote nuclear bombs.

Also, early game? There is no need for cliff removal in “early game”. Just watch where they are on the map and don’t build towards them.

I would enjoy if I could start designing and building my base upgrade before I go to Vulcanus. Having to go to Vulcanus as a pretty mandatory step to expand your base significantly is very annoying. So while there is no "need" for cliff removal early on, I would appreciate if the option was there.

If it was there, would you use it? Maybe, maybe not. That's up to you. That's the point.

[CyberCider]

I would enjoy if I could start designing and building my base upgrade before I go to Vulcanus. Having to go to Vulcanus as a pretty mandatory step to do so is very annoying. So while there is no "need" for cliff removal early on, I would appreciate if the option was there.

If it was there, would you use it? Maybe, maybe not. That's up to you. That's the point.

Well like I said, the option is there, even if you’re at the bare minimum of blue science. Just one nuclear reactor per cliff.

But, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say you want to stay on Nauvis for a while and build up a base, but you also say you won’t have access to nuclear bombs? They are a Nauvis tech, if you’re spending time building up a good Nauvis base, you are sure to research them eventually. Only players who are rushing to land on other planets will not have access to nukes.

[Milichip]

Well like I said, the option is there, even if you’re at the bare minimum of blue science. Just one nuclear reactor per cliff.

But, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say you want to stay on Nauvis for a while and build up a base, but you also say you won’t have access to nuclear bombs? They are a Nauvis tech, if you’re spending time building up a good Nauvis base, you are sure to research them eventually. Only players who are rushing land on other planets will not have access to nukes.

I am not contradicting myself, I am saying I would like the option to go to Gleba and Fulgora or stay on Nauvis, not just stay on Nauvis. Your main huge base could be on Fulgora or Gleba as well.
Also, it's just a stupid solution that is EXTREMELY wasteful (the price of a nuclear reactor is way too high for how little cliffs it destroys to be an "early game" thing too), and it leaves a permanent mark on the map which as I mentioned I dislike.

I would want the cheap cliff explosives to consume a lot of a material you usually wouldn't make (like how landfill consumes a lot of stone which you otherwise wouldn't want to mine), not red circuits or other vital items to the progression - something like sulfuric acid would fit, for example.
The main downside shouldn't be the price because it's meant to be an early game thing, it should be the manual placement on each cliff piece and long delay before the cliff is actually gone after placement. Long craft times as well.

Also, nuclear reactors were not meant as a solution to this. I don't understand the obsession with thinking they solve the problem perfectly when their craft price is clearly balanced for their -actual- purpose. Even if their price was balanced for it, it does not feel good to be using nuclear reactors like that.

Also, I said "around blue science", not after 800 blue science, before which you might as well have gone to vulcanus also.

[CyberCider]

I am not contradicting myself, I am saying I would like the option to go to Gleba and Fulgora or stay on Nauvis, not just stay on Nauvis.
Also, it's just a stupid solution that is EXTREMELY wasteful (the price of a nuclear reactor is way too high for how little cliffs it destroys to be an "early game" thing too), and it leaves a permanent mark on the map which as I mentioned I dislike.

I would want the cheap cliff explosives to consume a lot of a material you usually wouldn't make (like how landfill consumes a lot of stone which you otherwise wouldn't want to mine), not red circuits or other vital items to the progression - something like sulfuric acid would fit, for example.
The main downside shouldn't be the price because it's meant to be an early game thing, it should be the manual placement on each cliff piece and long delay before the cliff is actually gone after placement. Long craft times as well.

Also, nuclear reactors were not meant as a solution to this. I don't understand the obsession with thinking they solve the problem perfectly when their craft price is clearly balanced for their -actual- purpose. Even if they were, it does not feel good to be using nuclear reactors like that.

Also, I said "around blue science", not after 800 blue science, before which you might as well have gone to vulcanus also.

Ah, I understand what you meant now.

Anyway, you see, the various technologies were distributed across planets so that players who value different things will have different preferences for visiting the planets. Some players really dislike cliffs, so they are more drawn to Vulcanus. Others don’t mind coexisting with cliffs, but they have other things they feel like they can’t play without. For me it’s spidertrons, and I’ve heard many people feel the same way about the mech armor’s jetpack. Wanting to unlock things that make the game more enjoyable is one of the biggest things makes you want to progress forward, after all. That’s just how it is.

[Milichip]

Ah, I understand what you meant now.

Anyway, you see, the various technologies were distributed across planets so that players who value different things will have different preferences for visiting the planets. Some players really dislike cliffs, so they are more drawn to Vulcanus. Others don’t mind coexisting with cliffs, but they have other things they feel like they can’t play without. For me it’s spidertrons, and I’ve heard many people feel the same way about the mech armor’s jetpack. Wanting to unlock things that make the game more enjoyable is one of the biggest things makes you want to progress forward, after all. That’s just how it is.

Well you see, Vulcanus would still have the better cliff explosives that bots can use. That would not change. There would just be a crappier alternative before.

Mech armor is a great upgrade. But it's an upgrade. It's not the same. There is no lesser version of cliff explosives. That's exactly my point: to have a crappier alternative so you get more choice rather than feeling like it's a necessity.

As I said in my original post, you go from "cliffs are annoying as hell" to "cliffs don't matter whatsoever". There is no feeling of progression. If there was a middle step "cliffs are annoying but I have a suboptimal option to deal with them" then going from that to destroying every cliff would feel even better.
Even just completely ignoring the option and instantly going for Vulcanus cliff explosives would feel better than it currently does, simply because you go from 0 to 2 layers of tech instantly instead of 0 to 1.

[CyberCider]

Well you see, Vulcanus would still have the better cliff explosives that bots can use. That would not change. There would just be a crappier alternative on top.

Mech armor is a great upgrade. But it's an upgrade. It's not the same. There is no lesser version of cliff explosives. That's exactly my point.

As I said in my original post, you go from "cliffs are annoying as hell" to "cliffs don't matter whatsoever". There is no feeling of progression. If there was a middle step "cliffs are annoying but I have a suboptimal option to deal with them" then going from that to destroying every cliff would feel even better.
Even just completely ignoring the option and instantly going for Vulcanus cliff explosives would feel better than it currently does, simply because you go from 0 to 2 layers of tech instantly instead of 0 to 1.

There is no lesser version of the jetpack, and no lesser version of auto-walking. These are the parts that matter.

And again, not everyone is this unwilling to simply build around cliffs. They really don’t get in the way that much, especially after you get elevated rails. I still believe calling them annoying as hell and viewing them as something that actually realistically gets in your way is kind of exaggerating.

[Milichip]

There is no lesser version of the jetpack, and no lesser version of auto-walking. These are the parts that matter.

And again, not everyone is this unwilling to simply build around cliffs. They really don’t get in the way that much, especially after you get elevated rails. I still believe calling them annoying as hell and viewing them as something that actually realistically gets in your way is kind of exaggerating.

I get that some people don't care (a lot of others I spoke to thought it was a great idea). That's why I'm only proposing it as an option and isn't mandatory.
A lot of people don't care about capsules, or rocket launcher, or grenades, or landmines. They're still nice to have as an option for people even if to you they may be useless/inferior compared to other things.
If you don't like it, that's fine. But unless you have an actual problem with the suggestion that would make the game worse beyond just "I don't like it / I wouldn't use it", then I really don't see the point in you protesting against it. If they do choose to implement it and you still don't want to use it, I would be more than happy to see that as well. Choices are great not just because you can pick them, but because you can choose not to pick them - which also brings enjoyment.