[Suggestion/Comic] A Gleba productivity science would be nice

[AzulCrescent]

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Another point I couldn't fit into the comic, Vulcanus is so good at producing, well, EVERYTHING that a significant number of people would make it their hub world if it were not for the biolabs having to be on Nauvis, and Fulgora produces so many high quality byproducts that it can basically supply Aquilo AND your module production all on its own. Where as Gleba... doesn't really have anything going for it? This would make its production power as a planet stronger I think which would be a good addition to the game. Also, Space Age already has so many productivity sciences + the science scales so much that having this would be a nice thing to pump more research into.

The point AGAINST it would be that Gleba fruits are essentially permanent where as ore patches are not, so they don't need it. But i don't think this is true as well, asteroids are free and they pretty much don't run out anyway but they do get a productivity research haha.

[half a cat]

+1 for the cute explanation

[ElectroMagnetic]

+1 for the comic and the idea

[DirectedHunt42]

+1 for artistic talent

[CyberCider]

The point AGAINST it would be that Gleba fruits are essentially permanent where as ore patches are not, so they don't need it. But i don't think this is true as well, asteroids are free and they pretty much don't run out anyway but they do get a productivity research haha.

This is precisely why the tech doesn’t exist. Mining productivity exists to reduce resource depletion, not to increase output. And scrap productivity exists to allow Fulgora to keep up with other planets, because other means of increasing productivity won’t get any use on it. On Fulgora you don’t craft expensive items, allowing them to benefit from productivity increases, you get them from recycling instead.

About asteroids: There is a difference. On Gleba, you can simply build more farms when scaling up. There’s nothing stopping you from doing so. But in space, expanding a platform means practically redesigning it. So you need to be able to increase asteroid intake without building more platform, and that’s why the tech exists. On Gleba, the factory can grow, and therefore it must.

Another point I couldn't fit into the comic, Vulcanus is so good at producing, well, EVERYTHING that a significant number of people would make it their hub world if it were not for the biolabs having to be on Nauvis

Yeah, that’s just a Vulcanus problem. It’s both terribly unbalanced (calcite richness and steam production), and at the same time completely uninteresting. Both on Gleba and Fulgora, there’s some novel problem you have to “deal with” if you want your factory to work. Sure Fulgora gives you lots of items, but you have to sort and balance them and make sure they don’t back up. Either do that, or waste them in recyclers. But for those who want to engage with it, it’s a great logistical problem of handling byproducts. But Vulcanus? Absolutely nothing. Coal liquefaction’s heavy oil loop is probably the most engaging thing on that planet, which says a lot. Even tungsten processing is painfully simple. You could argue that even Nauvis, the literal vanilla planet, has more going on due to at least having biters. To me, Vulcanus is the planet that “has nothing going for it”. The “rotten egg” of the expansion, even though there’s a literal rotten planet next to it.

Your comics are great btw, it was a pleasant surprise to see you pop up on the forums.

[Tesse11ation]

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Another point I couldn't fit into the comic, Vulcanus is so good at producing, well, EVERYTHING that a significant number of people would make it their hub world if it were not for the biolabs having to be on Nauvis, and Fulgora produces so many high quality byproducts that it can basically supply Aquilo AND your module production all on its own. Where as Gleba... doesn't really have anything going for it? This would make its production power as a planet stronger I think which would be a good addition to the game. Also, Space Age already has so many productivity sciences + the science scales so much that having this would be a nice thing to pump more research into.

The point AGAINST it would be that Gleba fruits are essentially permanent where as ore patches are not, so they don't need it. But i don't think this is true as well, asteroids are free and they pretty much don't run out anyway but they do get a productivity research haha.

+1.

[mooklepticon]

+1. There should be some kind of productivity if not this.

[fencingsquirrel]

The point AGAINST it would be that Gleba fruits are essentially permanent where as ore patches are not, so they don't need it. But i don't think this is true as well, asteroids are free and they pretty much don't run out anyway but they do get a productivity research haha.

This is precisely why the tech doesn’t exist. Mining productivity exists to reduce resource depletion, not to increase output. And scrap productivity exists to allow Fulgora to keep up with other planets, because other means of increasing productivity won’t get any use on it. On Fulgora you don’t craft expensive items, allowing them to benefit from productivity increases, you get them from recycling instead.

About asteroids: There is a difference. On Gleba, you can simply build more farms when scaling up. There’s nothing stopping you from doing so. But in space, expanding a platform means practically redesigning it. So you need to be able to increase asteroid intake without building more platform, and that’s why the tech exists. On Gleba, the factory can grow, and therefore it must.

Another point I couldn't fit into the comic, Vulcanus is so good at producing, well, EVERYTHING that a significant number of people would make it their hub world if it were not for the biolabs having to be on Nauvis

Yeah, that’s just a Vulcanus problem. It’s both terribly unbalanced (calcite richness and steam production), and at the same time completely uninteresting. Both on Gleba and Fulgora, there’s some novel problem you have to “deal with” if you want your factory to work. Sure Fulgora gives you lots of items, but you have to sort and balance them and make sure they don’t back up. Either do that, or waste them in recyclers. But for those who want to engage with it, it’s a great logistical problem of handling byproducts. But Vulcanus? Absolutely nothing. Coal liquefaction’s heavy oil loop is probably the most engaging thing on that planet, which says a lot. Even tungsten processing is painfully simple. You could argue that even Nauvis, the literal vanilla planet, has more going on due to at least having biters. To me, Vulcanus is the planet that “has nothing going for it”. The “rotten egg” of the expansion, even though there’s a literal rotten planet next to it.

Your comics are great btw, it was a pleasant surprise to see you pop up on the forums.

Eh, the amount of work you have to put into gleba to have it reach EITHER fulgora or vulcanus' production is crazy due to spore clouds. It's very telling that on a reddit post where someone complained that iron/copper automation wasn't worth it that all the commentators told him he was crazy.... and then they all talked about how they made rocket parts on gleba. Rocket parts. The bare minimum a planet can contribute.

Also, I think it's unlikely vulcanus will see tremendous nerfs anyways. Just a reality that people do not appreciate heavy nerfs in sandbox games to large facets of the game.

[CyberCider]

Eh, the amount of work you have to put into gleba to have it reach EITHER fulgora or vulcanus' production is crazy due to spore clouds. It's very telling that on a reddit post where someone complained that iron/copper automation wasn't worth it that all the commentators told him he was crazy.... and then they all talked about how they made rocket parts on gleba. Rocket parts. The bare minimum a planet can contribute.

Also, I think it's unlikely vulcanus will see tremendous nerfs anyways. Just a reality that people do not appreciate heavy nerfs in sandbox games to large facets of the game.

Besides Fulgora, all the new planets produce only local unlocks and rocket parts. Some people even choose to ignore Fulgora’s mechanic and also only produce the bare minimum there. Why point out Gleba specifically? And since when do factorio players care about pollution? It never stopped anybody in 1.1, and it especially shouldn’t stop anyone now. Tesla turrets, rocket turrets, frankly stupidly OP quality artillery… Enemies can freely be ignored after you paste down a sufficient perimeter.

I also don’t believe a Vulcanus rework will happen, I just think it should. Or better yet, it should have happened before release similarly to what was done with Gleba. And note that I say rework instead of just nerf. It’s not only a matter of broken numbers, the planet’s very design is lacking.

[fencingsquirrel]

I don't think you can really compare Gleba's pollution to Nauvis'. Whether or not it's easy to deal with doesn't change the fact that most people can't really as Gleba is basically a deathworld if you try and pollute heavily, and most players just aren't that kind of player. If they're only making science and their own rocket parts, that shows they generally can't. The easy solution is have a small pollution cloud and stick artillery to cover it, and that's all they do.

Gleba should be a reasonable planet to make plastic/circuits/etc if you want to, but people just don't do it. Whereas with fulgora plenty of people make utility science or blue circuits, and vulcanus is vulcanus.

Anyways, I don't feel too strongly on this, that's just my gut reaction.

[CyberCider]

I don't think you can really compare Gleba's pollution to Nauvis'. Whether or not it's easy to deal with doesn't change the fact that most people can't really as Gleba is basically a deathworld if you try and pollute heavily, and most players just aren't that kind of player.

Deathworld is a bad comparison. The difficulty of deathworld mainly comes from two things: Starting with nothing, and having limited resources. On Gleba neither of these are a factor. You don’t need to play fast or in any specific way, you just need a solid wall design.

If they're only making science and their own rocket parts, that shows they generally can't.
…
Gleba should be a reasonable planet to make plastic/circuits/etc if you want to, but people just don't do it.

That doesn’t show anything. That’s simply the normal way to play space age. Produce everything on Nauvis, unless something is encouraging you to produce it elsewhere. Be that needing local resources, or Fulgora having an unbalanced overabundance of materials that you have to consume or else your base backs up. People who want to produce miscellaneous stuff on Gleba can do it just fine. Most people just don’t want to, because it’s a pretty non-standard way to play the game. There’s no incentive to do it, so they don’t.

And I have to ask again, why point out Gleba as if Vulcanus isn’t the same? Despite how simple it would be to produce anything on Vulcanus, people also only produce Vulcanus items and rocket parts. I guess some of them might try to make good use of the stone, but the game pretty much directly tells you to not bother and throw it into lava. Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that it’s not Gleba’s difficulty that discourages players from producing miscellaneus items on Gleba, it’s the fact that it’s not Nauvis.

[erkki772]

I think +1 fruit infinite tech would fit good in Gleba. Making it expensive as other productivity techs and having that limit of 300%. One tree output 50+30 fruits max.

[eugenekay]

I think that Space Age's Productivity Researches strike a good default game balance for most players. The only Planet-specific tech is Scrap recycling productivity research (which caps at 300% anyway); and maybe Asteroid Productivity (which are entirely different production chains to begin with). Mining Productivity applies to all Drills, the Rocket Part and Intermediates are equally good on all planets, and Research Productivity is also Global (though your Biolabs are still locked to Nauvis).

I think it would feel out-of-place to give Gleba a special Infinite Research, without also adding one for Vulcanus (Lava and Sulfuric Acid are already pretty powerful) or Aquilo (Heating Effectiveness would cheese the entire point of the Planet).


If you want to have an Infinite-Research Resource-Doubling Legendary Factory.... nobody is stopping your playstyle

[Erichteia]

One thing to point out is that Gleba gives access to the T3 prod module and biolabs. The ultimate productivity bonuses. Obviously this only matters from a game progression point of view, not for a mega/gigabase, but I think it should still count.

That being said, it is true that Gleba is in a weird place regarding scale. However, in a direction other than what this post implies. You barely need any production on Gleba to reach very high spm's. For 10k spm and legendary prod modules everywhere, you need 1222 yumako fruits per minute (or roughly 130 trees). That's really not that much. Sure, it only scales linearly with your progress while other resources have several multiplicative effects (mining prod*big miner prod*big miner speed*beacon speed), but the base production rate is so absurdly high that this isn't even a major issue for 100k spm. And frankly, a 100k spm factory is supposed to be massive. My biggest complaint with SA is that factories can be so damn small nowadays.

Note: i disregarded the effect of spoilage because, if you want to build at such a scale, I assume your factories go fast enough that your science is >90% fresh once it reaches the labs.

[Arcus]

It's pretty notable that the mining speed of drills in endgame is fast enough that it's very difficult to get the full output out of a drill, so the mining productivity researches only serve to extend how long the patch lasts after a certain point (when one drill mines 1.4k scrap per second it's almost impossible to utilize all of it).

So while Gleba doesn't benefit from mining prod, since plantations don't deplete by default so it doesn't need to (though genetic modification would be a cool idea to explore).

Also while it doesn't directly benefit Gleba it technically does have a research for raw resource productivity - asteroid processing prod.

Love the comic, though.

EDIT: I'd also say that scrap prod is surprisingly useless because it doesn't do anything about the real pain point of Fulgora processing, which is the ratios.

Yes, scrap gets a double boost from mining prod and scrap prod... and it's not super useful in the end, because holmium is still produced at a 1% rate regardless.

[CyberCider]

That being said, it is true that Gleba is in a weird place regarding scale. However, in a direction other than what this post implies. You barely need any production on Gleba to reach very high spm's. For 10k spm and legendary prod modules everywhere, you need 1222 yumako fruits per minute (or roughly 130 trees). That's really not that much. Sure, it only scales linearly with your progress while other resources have several multiplicative effects (mining prod*big miner prod*big miner speed*beacon speed), but the base production rate is so absurdly high that this isn't even a major issue for 100k spm. And frankly, a 100k spm factory is supposed to be massive. My biggest complaint with SA is that factories can be so damn small nowadays.

It's not just Gleba, I've noticed it with Vulcanus as well. I believe this is caused by a combination of two factors:
1) The recipes are poorly adjusted to the machines that perform them. At a glance, the new recipes may seem fine and balanced. But to get the real picture, you have to divide their ingredients by 1.5 and their crafting times by 2 or 4 depending on the machine. Once you do that, you realize how cheap and fast they actually are. Even the science packs!
2) There are simply not enough crafting steps for the costs of items to be able to add up. All the new production chains start from scratch, instead of being built on top of previous items you've had to produce. Let me explain: Producing the next vanilla science pack requires you not just design production of new items, but also scale up production of all your old items, because the new items are made of old items. So even if there aren't many new items, their production impacts your whole factory. The Space Age science packs are made from a similarly small amount of new items, except all of them are completely brand new. No vanilla items, directly or indirectly. The new resources can only be processed in a few steps, and that alone is not enough to facilitate the complexity or cost appropriate for science packs of that level. Those science packs are more comparable to resource processing than manufacturing. You process tungsten ore into two different “plates”, and you can already make science. You process fruit into the most stable form, bioflux, and you can already make science. These processes should be the absolute bare minimum to get started with science, not the end goals.

Fulgora has a decent selection of new intermediates, and gives you access to plenty of vanilla items without you actually having to produce them. So overall it fares quite well in this. And it has its own thing of forcing you to produce whatever you can out of its byproducts, so that alone creates the need for various miscellaneous industry on the planet that isn't directly tied to pink science production. Aquilo relies on holmium plates, which is fine I suppose. But imo both of them are still affected by problem 1. You remember the old "expensive mode"? It feels like Space Age is irreversibly set to "cheap mode".

[Erichteia]

The main difference is that Fulgora and Vulcanus complement the existing factory perfectly. So you can move parts of the Nauvis factory to either planet. For instance, I had a system where Fulgora overflow is picked up and delivered to Nauvis so I could postpone the Nauvis redesign for the entire game until I started megabasing. Just added some quality assemblers, imported some circuits and good to go for another 10h. There is, however, little reason to do the same thing on Gleba. Sure, plastic from Gleba is cheap, but plastic with cryoplants is even better so this is quite temporary. And you don't need that much sulfur. It's not really a complaint, because I think the devs already found much better ways for Gleba to complement the other planets than I ever could. It's more a natural consequence of Gleba being bio-based. I don't think it's an accident that both in SE and SA, the bio planets are the most different, the most interesting to design around, but also the most controversial

[Theukon-Dos]

I think it's a bit silly to completely dismiss giving Gleba any verticle progression when so much of Space Age is focused on adding just that. Not just with productivity bonuses, but also with the addition of quality. Gleba very much does have a massive base production via it's agriculture, and you can improve that by making more farms. But it's also the only planet where horizontal progression is such a hard wall.

Sure, covering entire wetlands in fruit farms may be thematically exciting. But it's still rather underwhelming when you can match it's production on Vulcanus with a single legendary foundry surrounded by speed beacons.

And honestly, I don't even think Gleba resources being fully renewable is that much of a boon in the context of Space Age. Of all the stuff you can actually make out of fruit and bioflux, any oil-based resource is already infinite on Nauvis and Fulgora. While anything you need to mine may aswell be infinite between mining prod being dirt cheap, productivity bonuses for the rest of your production chain being just as massive, and legendary big mining drills reducing the drain rate of ore patches by 98%. If anything short of sustained 100k SPM could even dent an ore patch being mined with so many bonuses, then I would be impressed. But if so, I promise that you won't be meeting that demand on Gleba either.

[Milichip]

Love the comic, and I think having productivity research on bacteria cultivation as well as bioplastics / biosulfur / biolubricant would be great too!

Boosting the productivity of all biochambers could also work great, though it could have a downside of generating too many seeds as a result, but likely well worth it regardless.

[Theukon-Dos]

Love the comic, and I think having productivity research on bacteria cultivation as well as bioplastics / biosulfur / biolubricant would be great too!

Boosting the productivity of all biochambers could also work great, though it could have a downside of generating too many seeds as a result, but likely well worth it regardless.

Bioplastic is already boosted by the default plastic bar productivity research, as is rocket fuel. While Sulphur and Lubricant are used seldom enough and are cheap enough that I don't think they need any productivity bonus.

That said, I don't think you could run particularly far afowl by letting bacteria cultivation get bolstered by mining productivity. Given how metals are needed for just about everything, being able to dramatically reduce the amount of bioflux needed with research would be a welcome boon for any non-science industrial endevors on the planet.