They need to rename Gleba to Bartleby

[Jay_Raynor]

Spoilage - spoilage itself isn't really a problem and is probably a good mechanic, provided there are tools to manage it. There aren't.

You don't need to constantly have the freshest goods to adequately manage spoilage.

There are four ways of moving things: belts, bots, inserters and bulk (trains/space platforms). Only one (inserters) understands at any level spoilage, and even then it is comparative rather then quantative (e.g. I don't think you can move items with < 5mins to live). This makes management of spoilage a hacky mess with mostly one solution - loop/rot/remove (or the same with chests except store/rot/remove). There is a second (move most rotten from chest 1 to chest 2) which is only really useful for pentapod eggs as it is fiddly to setup.

You don't need to move items with 5 min or less to live very far at all.

[NineNine]

You don't need to move items with 5 min or less to live very far at all.

That's actually one of the best tips for Gleba I've seen.

[Jay_Raynor]

You don't need to move items with 5 min or less to live very far at all.

That's actually one of the best tips for Gleba I've seen.

Gleba was so much easier for me when I learned of the three short spoil items (nutrients, mash, jelly), nutrients are the only ones you can't easily manage via direct insert. The other two have no reason to exist via belt or bot.

[pmc666]

You don't need to constantly have the freshest goods to adequately manage spoilage.

Yes - I know. I have, for want of a better term, beaten Gleba. That wasn't the point.

The beauty of Factorio is that it provides a rich palette of tools that allow you to create pleasing and elegant things. I don't play it to get to the end game (as let's face it that is always been a bit anti-climatic) but to have fun designing factories and bases that please me - a mixture of aesthetics and engineering (to be fair I may not be very good at this, but that's why I play).

Gleba doesn't let me do that - it has mechanics that it are either beyond me to handle elegantly or that don't exist. The displeasing to me "adequete" is the only game in town. And, more generally, there is no "need" in Factorio - there is only enjoy.

Hence for me it is the best of a bad job - future play-throughs will probably plonk an entire working base on Gleba, set up a few tree farms and perimeter, and go off to enjoy the game the way I play it on the other planets, where there is a good fit with what I want from the game. Or use a mod to remove it entirely if it turns out I can't ignore it sufficiently.

In terms of ranking the worlds by enjoyability (except Aquilo as I've not explored that) it is last by a steep measure in my reckoning.

[Jay_Raynor]

You don't need to constantly have the freshest goods to adequately manage spoilage.

Yes - I know. I have, for want of a better term, beaten Gleba. That wasn't the point.

The beauty of Factorio is that it provides a rich palette of tools that allow you to create pleasing and elegant things. I don't play it to get to the end game (as let's face it that is always been a bit anti-climatic) but to have fun designing factories and bases that please me - a mixture of aesthetics and engineering (to be fair I may not be very good at this, but that's why I play).

Gleba doesn't let me do that - it has mechanics that it are either beyond me to handle elegantly or that don't exist. The displeasing to me "adequete" is the only game in town. And, more generally, there is no "need" in Factorio - there is only enjoy.

Well that's pretty difficult to even answer when we don't know what you consider elegant or aesthetically pleasing. Would you be willing to share screenshots of what you consider such and what you ended up doing on Gleba?

[pulsereaction]

I think the devs also struggled a lot with Gleba - there were design changes up to the last minute of the development cycle. I think that one thing that might've been overlooked is the fact that the whole game was in open early access, so while the systems and mechanics were being built, people were exploring them piece by piece, and producing content and guides for them. There are systems in the original game that benefitted from that, that are complex but with the open early access there was a lot of opportunity for experimentation of those systems in isolation by the player base, not to mention a bunch of content created to help people navigate the changes.

With the DLC, Vulcanus, Fulgora, and Gleba got released with not a lot of time for people to process and produce guides for them; not to mention that they are at least an order of magnitude more complex than the existing game systems. I think Wube didn't account for this, and left the player base to experiment by themselves, and while there is a huge swatch of people that love that, there are players that get lost and frustrated by it.

tl;dr Gleba is not the problem, the lack of proper tutorials and documentation is; one FFF walking through the first hours on a planet would've sufficed.

[Thadrax]

tl;dr Gleba is not the problem, the lack of proper tutorials and documentation is; one FFF walking through the first hours on a planet would've sufficed.

That may work for some people, for me the whole design of Gleba breaks a few of the fundamental rules and design paradigm of the game. It's like including a instant death stealth level in a game like Doom. I have worked my way through Gleba so I know how I can make it work, that part just isn't fun at all, I absolutely despise the time wasted on that hellhole and I'm scratching my head wondering how it was possible for the devs to not notice how bad this was and to pull the plug and start over.

[NineNine]

.... I absolutely despise the time wasted on that hellhole and I'm scratching my head wondering how it was possible for the devs to not notice how bad this was and to pull the plug and start over.

Have you considered the most obvious answer: most people like Gleba, and you're in a minority who doesn't?

[FasterJump]

Gleba has been debated many times, and I already added my 2 cents. In short, I somewhat disagree with OP's points, I think Gleba is fine. I'll add that nowadays games are expected to be easy. Yes, even Dark Souls is easy compared to old school 80s / 90s games (1991's Sonic, Donkey Kong Country, Gradius...). Surely Factorio players can handle a little challenge, what's up with players nowadays expecting to be mouth-fed everything?

Making 1 (2, in my case) of each machine was enough to get a production going. I was able to build a huge perimeter with a piercing ammo + missile belt without relying on imports (except for tesla towers) + solar fields to power the laser turrets, and the perimeter barely got attacked at all. I came in as my 3rd planet, because I wanted to cheese the wildlife (Factorio tells you that Gleba is a swamp with native life), but ennemies are designed to be manageable even as a first planet.

In conclusion: things spoils, and some players struggle with the challenge. No shame looking for online solutions if you don't enjoy the challenge.

Bonus: I'll still throw in a suggestion to the dev team. Make Gleba pollution factor dynamic, i.e. dependant on the pollution produced in the last 2 hours, rather than all-time. This means that players won't be deadlocked by big stompers if they haven't setup a stable production yet. Also, it means that going to Gleba first and letting it idle is not going to be a problem, unless the base is huge. Maybe I'll make a proper suggestion thread.

[Thadrax]

.... I absolutely despise the time wasted on that hellhole and I'm scratching my head wondering how it was possible for the devs to not notice how bad this was and to pull the plug and start over.

Have you considered the most obvious answer: most people like Gleba, and you're in a minority who doesn't?

Looking at the responses and how debated Gleba is, it seems to be enough people for a developer to go "huh, maybe we should look at this again". Maybe not your run of the mill AAA developer, but Wube that really seemed to strive for perfection?

However it is true, that Factorio aligned so perfectly with what I liked from a game might have been a fluke, considering they screwed with a few of what I consider absolutely essential foundations of the game.

[NineNine]

.... I absolutely despise the time wasted on that hellhole and I'm scratching my head wondering how it was possible for the devs to not notice how bad this was and to pull the plug and start over.

Have you considered the most obvious answer: most people like Gleba, and you're in a minority who doesn't?

Looking at the responses and how debated Gleba is, it seems to be enough people for a developer to go "huh, maybe we should look at this again". Maybe not your run of the mill AAA developer, but Wube that really seemed to strive for perfection?

I'm not a game developer. But if I were, I would think that I would want to make a game of a certain difficulty that some people thought was too difficult. A game that *everybody* can easily master is a game for a child, which to me, as a theoretical game developer, would not be very interesting. I think that the amount of discussions about Gleba, and the few people who threw a temper tantrum or rage quit on the forums indicates that the level of difficulty of Gleba is probably just about right.

[XT-248]

I wanted to add my cents to the conversation in this thread.


The number of people unhappy with Gleba compared to those who are happy with Gleba is a purely subjective measurement. Just because one individual thinks Gleba is in a good place while a few individuals provide negative criticism does not make Gleba a source of fun gameplay enjoyment equally for everybody.

I DID see a Steam Factorio forum post from someone not long ago where they ragequit and uninstalled Factorio just because they found out the joy of managing and setting up a factory on Gleba for success.

See: https://steamcommunity.com/app/427520/d ... 371844258/

Of course, a couple of white defenders didn't even try to engage with the user to find out what was wrong with their Gleba Factory to require the engineer to return "too often" to Gleba to sort/fix their Gleba's factory. The original poster moved to what I presume are other more enjoyable video games for them, so we don't know what annoyed them enough to "uninstall" the Factorio game.


I will add that whenever I plan production on Gleba for almost anything. There are too many interdependent factors (spoilage percentage, time delta between machines for logistics, ensuring that all output is 100% consumed, Shutting down and restarting external controls to multiple production chains, a new style of hostile fauna, etc.) without any lessons or build-up to getting a semi-decent factory on Gleba running.

That is the same problem WUBE had with the pre-0.17 basic oil processing, which produced three fluids. The old basic oil processing recipe was a considerable barrier for players to overcome to get past blue science packs. I didn't have a problem with pre-0.17 basic oil processing, but I understood where players were rightly struggling.

Now, Gleba is the new "pre-0.17 basic oil processing barrier."

When I think about Vulcanis and Fulgora, I find that many engineers, if not all, are familiar with the new mechanics. Thus, they can take pre-existing lessons from Nauvis and touch down on a new world with a reasonable plan to start a new factory style with new mechanics.

Gleba doesn't have that.


Others have already mentioned some problems that I and other engineers have had with Gleba, and I will reiterate them here. WUBE should address these issues before I can enjoy Gleba mechanics.

• Terrains are challenging to discern where I can build/grow or can't.
• Having to take into account spoilage everywhere. Input, output, logistics, etc.
• A lack of smooth transition for production lines going offline and restarting without over-engineering.
• A new style of fauna that requires a new "defense strategy" that isn't immediately obvious upfront. There is no way to test the novel defense strategy beforehand without going to Gleba and experimenting with new defense implementations first-hand.
• I have limited time to enjoy video games. Gleba is a huge time-sinker with room for improvement. Less "I have to return to Gleba to find out why/what went wrong" factor.

*snipped*

tl;dr Gleba is not the problem, the lack of proper tutorials and documentation is; one FFF walking through the first hours on a planet would've sufficed.

When I finally had access to and time to play Factorio on the day of its release while traveling, I jumped ahead to Gleba to experiment with and understand its new mechanics. I tested various factory configurations in the editor or theory, and no matter what I did, problems existed that only became apparent after hours of running the initial factory in the editor. It is really telling that I am confident in making a Vulcanis or Fulgora factory but not a Gleba factory, given how much I have kept up with the Space Age DLC news/blogs/content up to the release day, even to the point of watching a Content Creator on YouTube of visiting "Gleba first" while playing Factorio with Space Age DLC enabled myself. When this Content Creator got to Gleba, they struggled to build a factory that would last until the end of the game to put a diplomatic spin on it.

I don't think a "community walkthrough/guide" or a dedicated "FFF blog walkthrough" would have helped. Engineers had access to dozens of "pre-0.17 oil basic processing" by the Factorio Engineers Community, which did not help them much.

WUBE agreed to make the basic oil processing change based on reasonable grounds. I believe the community has provided enough valid constructive criticism to implement a slower build-up to Gleba's mechanics. After all, we DO have access to nearly three months of community-created guides, videos, walkthroughs, and otherwise to help smooth the transition to having a "stable and lasting until end-game" Gleba factory since the release date of Space Age DLC.

[NineNine]

When I finally had access to and time to play Factorio on the day of its release while traveling, I jumped ahead to Gleba to experiment with and understand its new mechanics. I tested various factory configurations in the editor or theory, and no matter what I did, problems existed that only became apparent after hours of running the initial factory in the editor. It is really telling that I am confident in making a Vulcanis or Fulgora factory but not a Gleba factory, given how much I have kept up with the Space Age DLC news/blogs/content up to the release day, even to the point of watching a Content Creator on YouTube of visiting "Gleba first" while playing Factorio with Space Age DLC enabled myself. When this Content Creator got to Gleba, they struggled to build a factory that would last until the end of the game to put a diplomatic spin on it.

Luckily, this is a very supportive community, full of people who will help others. If you're still having trouble with Gleba, you should consider posting to Gameplay Help (viewforum.php?f=18). I've got Gleba running without any problem, with just a couple of supply ships going back and forth, and I'd be happy to help. I don't know who these "content creators" are that you've been watching. It sounds like whoever they are, they should also consider asking for some help. We're here, ready to help! Just ask!

[Jay_Raynor]

Looking at the responses and how debated Gleba is, it seems to be enough people for a developer to go "huh, maybe we should look at this again". Maybe not your run of the mill AAA developer, but Wube that really seemed to strive for perfection?

Not really, but then this "second look" is predicated on the below...

However it is true, that Factorio aligned so perfectly with what I liked from a game might have been a fluke, considering they screwed with a few of what I consider absolutely essential foundations of the game.

Here's perhaps the big rub of Gleba where objections flow from. What essential foundations do you feel Gleba lacks?

[XT-248]

When I finally had access to and time to play Factorio on the day of its release while traveling, I jumped ahead to Gleba to experiment with and understand its new mechanics. I tested various factory configurations in the editor or theory, and no matter what I did, problems existed that only became apparent after hours of running the initial factory in the editor. It is really telling that I am confident in making a Vulcanis or Fulgora factory but not a Gleba factory, given how much I have kept up with the Space Age DLC news/blogs/content up to the release day, even to the point of watching a Content Creator on YouTube of visiting "Gleba first" while playing Factorio with Space Age DLC enabled myself. When this Content Creator got to Gleba, they struggled to build a factory that would last until the end of the game to put a diplomatic spin on it.

Luckily, this is a very supportive community, full of people who will help others. If you're still having trouble with Gleba, you should consider posting to Gameplay Help (viewforum.php?f=18). I've got Gleba running without any problem, with just a couple of supply ships going back and forth, and I'd be happy to help. I don't know who these "content creators" are that you've been watching. It sounds like whoever they are, they should also consider asking for some help. We're here, ready to help! Just ask!

I will elaborate on a few points because you seem to have the wrong impression of what I am trying to do: provide constructive feedback to improve Gleba's mechanics.


I have nearly ~2k hours ish of Factorio (most of it pre-Space Age DLC) gameplay time under my belt, split between Steam and non-Steam versions of Factorio. I managed to complete "There is no Spoon" with pre-0.17 basic oil processing in 5 hours, back then when world records used to be 3 hours and a half. My Factorio forum profile is relatively "VERY" young and doesn't reflect how long I have played Factorio. I don't "need" help figuring out Gleba. I don't enjoy Gleba mechanics after a few months of Space Age DLC. I enjoy Seablock Mod and figuring out how to underfill/overfill fluid flow with 1.1 fluid box mechanics to allow graceful recovery when something goes wrong. Some mods, such as Pyanadon, are too masochistic for me.

I offer this information to help you understand how much experience I have.


In some ways, Gleba's mechanics go too far; in others, they feel right. The former is overwhelmingly adversely affecting my enjoyment of playing Space Age DLC. I plan to speedrun Space Age DLC in the future (potentially soonish), and Gleba is giving me a massive case of analysis paralysis. However, I plan to tackle the speedrun eventually on my own. So, thank you for your offer to help, but no thank you.


The Content Creator I mentioned is among the engineers who attended the pre-launch Space Age LAN party mentioned in this blog: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-427. They have also uploaded potentially thousands, if not more, hours of gameplay spent in Factorio before and since the release of the Space Age DLC. As experts, they are the last ones who need help, which is why they were invited to the pre-release Space DLC LAN party.

I watched them try to go from Nauvis straight to Gleba because no one else was doing it back then. Now, I can't find a VoD or link to that gameplay, presumably because they gave up and restarted a new series: Nauvis -> Vulcanis or Fulgora or whatever. They also delisted/deleted/hidden the initial Nauvis -> Gleba video.


Those problems exist today as they existed a few months ago. As I mentioned, I have limited gameplay time and different video game competitions for my limited free time. When I go home from work, I prefer to spend my limited free time enjoying playing something.

Having to fly back to Gleba for the umpteenth time to deal with a failing factory, which plays a minor role but is still essential in the interplanetary production chains across the Nauvis' solar system, is not my idea of fun.

[mmmPI]

I will elaborate on a few points because you seem to have the wrong impression of what I am trying to do: provide constructive feedback to improve Gleba's mechanics.

I agree with previous user mentionning that it sound like gameplay-help material (more than anything related to the renaming of the planet Gleba to Bartleby.)

[Jay_Raynor]

I wanted to add my cents to the conversation in this thread.

I've been busy defending Gleba as a concept so I wanted to address your specific listed points:

• Terrains are challenging to discern where I can build/grow or can't.
• Having to take into account spoilage everywhere. Input, output, logistics, etc.
• A lack of smooth transition for production lines going offline and restarting without over-engineering.
• A new style of fauna that requires a new "defense strategy" that isn't immediately obvious upfront. There is no way to test the novel defense strategy beforehand without going to Gleba and experimenting with new defense implementations first-hand.
• I have limited time to enjoy video games. Gleba is a huge time-sinker with room for improvement. Less "I have to return to Gleba to find out why/what went wrong" factor.

Terrain: I wholeheartedly agree without reservation. I like neither the confusing color of the terrain or how much swamp exists given the low amount of stone for landfill. I pave my base to make it at least easy to discern.
Spoilage: I actually enjoyed this part of Gleba once I realized the only end product really affected by spoilage is agri science. Clearing spoilage requires a new design philosophy for belts and trains but barely anything for bots. Also, yes, you can burn spoilage for power, but it's easier to make steady power with rocket fuel and recycle spoilage into oblivion that you're not turning into carbon.
Transition: I had more problems with Fulgora backing up than figuring out Gleba and both essentially have the same thesis: process/eliminate most everything by default to only to save what you need. The hardest thing to learn on both planets is that you can't use everything. You will have waste. Not just imperfect production but actual waste. Accept that (a real part of real manufacturing) and it becomes easier. The bit about seeds is pretty important, though.
Fauna: If you think you need to learn the new strategy, do what new players do and play peaceful mode. You can toggle it separately of Nauvis. Biter defense strategy may not have been readily apparent to new vanilla players, after all.
Limited time: This is MOST of us and unbelievable that this is a complaint. Space platforms take a lot of time to master, are you going to complain about them, too? Space Age requires multiple different production dynamics. If you don't want to spend the time learning a particular one, mod it out or go back to vanilla.

[pmc666]

Space platforms take a lot of time to master, are you going to complain about them, too?

Master - yes. But you can get a "good enough" Space platform really easily due to good game progression: you need a space platform to get space science so you have to first build one in the safest space enviroment you have - Nauvis orbit.

Sure, in objective terms it is rubbish, but it works well enough to learn, and that is the point. And space platforms are also safeish in the innerworlds - it is actually quite difficult to destroy a beginner platform on a journey as they have to be big (particularly the mk1 explorer) to actually move, and if you run out of fuel you drift home.

These are a good mechanic

• Advance the game

• Learn from it to make a better space platform

• Learn from it to understand a new set of game dynamics (akin to oil processing)

And that I think it the point - "good enough" (in Gleba's case a factory that runs without handholding, and a perimeter that is secure) is a very high bar in comparison to the other inner worlds, and there is no progression as such. It requires a complete understanding of the mechanics, particularly of the factory. It is a massive timesink to learn that much stuff at a high level all at once.

Space Age requires multiple different production dynamics. If you don't want to spend the time learning a particular one, mod it out or go back to vanilla.

Or, as is being done, offer thoughts and constructive feedback to the community and the developers to make it (in one's opinion) a better base game.

[Jay_Raynor]

Master - yes. But you can get a "good enough" Space platform really easily due to good game progression: you need a space platform to get space science so you have to first build one in the safest space enviroment you have - Nauvis orbit.

Sure, in objective terms it is rubbish, but it works well enough to learn, and that is the point. And space platforms are also safeish in the innerworlds - it is actually quite difficult to destroy a beginner platform on a journey as they have to be big (particularly the mk1 explorer) to actually move, and if you run out of fuel you drift home.

These are a good mechanic

• Advance the game

• Learn from it to make a better space platform

• Learn from it to understand a new set of game dynamics (akin to oil processing)

And that I think it the point - "good enough" (in Gleba's case a factory that runs without handholding, and a perimeter that is secure) is a very high bar in comparison to the other inner worlds, and there is no progression as such. It requires a complete understanding of the mechanics, particularly of the factory. It is a massive timesink to learn that much stuff at a high level all at once.

Larger safe zone, no expansion, and peaceful mode are options on Gleba, same as Nauvis when we tell new players to use those options while learning if they're struggling to learn while under attack. Are experienced players too prideful going in to SA?

Or, as is being done, offer thoughts and constructive feedback to the community and the developers to make it (in one's opinion) a better base game.

The time complaint was questionable (seemingly disingenuous) given the puffery from the same poster claiming thousands of hours' experience, hence the dismissive "mod it or go back".

[mmmPI]

Are experienced players too prideful going in to SA?

I think that's a lot of the issues. Besides it's possible to cheese Gleba in many way by importing ressources from other planets, if by the time you go to Aquilo you haven't realized it, i think players have missed something as the game is very explicit about the incentives for inter planetary logisitic.

Comparing the complexity of dealing with spoilage to train signals, i can say that for me train signals represented much more time to understand whereas dealing with spoilage took less than a week.

The time complaint was questionable (seemingly disingenuous) given the puffery from the same poster claiming thousands of hours' experience, hence the dismissive "mod it or go back".

I agree and think only a clown or a troll would qualify its own complaint of "constructive feedback" when it's based on imaginary youtubers.