Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Moderator: ickputzdirwech

neoChaos12
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:43 am
Contact:

Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by neoChaos12 »

TL;DR
My opinion is that the reason Gleba doesn't feel very satisfying and like a drag is that it doesn't sufficiently lean into the unique mechanics that Gleba introduces to the game.
Why?
In my opinion, the key mechanic/challenge that Gleba is pushing, just as Vulcanus pushed more fluid based high-quantity manufacturing and Fulgora pushed recycling, sushi belts and belt-sorting, is efficient burner based bases. The reason that I think it feels unsatisfying and frustrating is that the broader in-game mechanics don't actually support this paradigm well, thereby preventing Gleba from leaning harder into this and preventing the player from solving this riddle properly. Basically, Gleba fails to invoke a feeling of "Man, I really wish I could do this outside of Gleba!"
What?
2 changes are necessary:
- an instant feeling of "Wow! I want that now!" as early after landing on Gleba as possible to motivate players to put up with Gleba (think Vulcanus and the realization of lava-based productivity)
- better handling of the combination of spoilage with burner fuel (nutrients) in order to make that puzzle less punishing/grindy and more interesting.

I included some examples of what could be done in my OG post but don't want to make them the focus, so I'm hiding them behind a spoiler tag:
As an example of what could be done in terms of game mechanics to ease this, I suggest allowing players to easily control the buffer sizes for burnable fuels. I don't want a building that I loaded up with efficiency modules so it only consumes 100 kW of power to then stock up on 10 x nutrients all the time! Similarly, if I'm pushing a buliding's power consumption up to insane levels, I would maybe want it to stock up on perhaps an entire stack of nutrients. This would have the most impact for players who freshly landed on Gleba and still haven't set up agri science exports.

As an example of not pushing things hard enough in this direction, I suggest that similar to how bot and solar panel power efficiency is down to 50% on Gleba, all electric powered devices should suffer from a similar efficiency drop. Moreover, there should be early access to nutrient powered inserters (a suggestion was already made here) and assemblers to truly lean deep into the burner economy (I'm drawn to the early game of exotic industries for reference here). For me, personally, power generation was really not an issue by the time I reached Gleba, so this doesn't even feel like it'd be a big challenge - but I also have enough gameplay time in Factorio to qualify as having a lot of bias. Perhaps an even more hardcore version of this would involve electric structure suffering small amounts of electric damage every now and then if they operate on Gleba?

The ultimate reward for pushing through all this should be that the everything that burns nutrients to function is massively more power efficient than anything electricity based, but that will feel rewarding and useful if and only if the tools are available to make it as scalable as electric energy distribution once a player has created an appropriate design.

Edit: As an alternative to and extension of the above, perhaps we can take inspiration from steam power in Exotic Industries as a possible solution to the frustration of nutrients and fuel stack sizes, in that it should become possible fairly early to turn nutrients into a fluid that doesn't spoil.

Edit 2: Another idea I just had w.r.t. Gleba's fuel economy was to eventually replace burnable nutrients and nutrient fluid with an energy distribution tile that powers nutrient powered buildings. Effectively, lining up the entire surface of Gleba with artificial tissue for power distribution instead of power poles! Zerg structures may only be built on creep

Edit 3: As opposed to new types of bio-fueled inserters and assemblers, perhaps it would make more sense to unlock a toggle, like a module, that switches power sources.
Last edited by neoChaos12 on Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eugenekay
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:14 am
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by eugenekay »

Most players are complaining that Gleba is too hard - and meanwhile, we want it Harder :D

I think that there is definitely some room for Improvement and more content on each of the new Planets, but I think Gleba is "about right" for Space Age as-is. It adds new puzzles, forces you to re-think from "Speed and POWER to Overproduce" to "Efficiency and Cleanliness and Use everything Just-in-Time", which is a welcome change.

There are some mods available which add more Recipes, Fruit Types, etc to the Planet, but finding the right Balance for everybody is going to be impossible. I think that the challenges of integrating a "Biofactory" with a "Metal factory" highlighted in FFF-431 leading to Iron/Copper bacteria being implemented are the real Issue here. There maybe should be a bit more integration of these chains (Bio-Low-Density-Structures?), but I think that moving to force more Burner-based mechanics would be a step back.
neoChaos12
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:43 am
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by neoChaos12 »

I hear you, and I am definitely not saying Gleba needs to be made more difficult! I really meant that the game has mechanical limitations that make it difficult to really lean in to the Gleba mechanics. The examples I gave were mostly spur of the moment things. Consider, when I saw the lava in Vulcanus and how I can produce items en-masse (this happened within minutes of landing at Vulcanus), I immediately went "Oh, snap! I want that and I want it now!" and that motivated me to slog through the next several hours of setting up the base and dealing with the challenges of Vulcanus. Gleba, however, completely failed at giving me that same feeling, whereas the core mechanics seem very punishing. And the core mechanic feels punishing because the game lacks good tools/mechanics to deal with the combination of a burner economy and spoilage at the same time.
Muche
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by Muche »

neoChaos12 wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:36 pm I suggest allowing players to easily control the buffer sizes for burnable fuels. [...]
Similarly, if I'm pushing a buliding's power consumption up to insane levels, I would maybe want it to stock up on perhaps an entire stack of nutrients.
Biochambers can read their fuel and send it onto circuit network now; if the default limit 5 is too high for your design requirements, you can utilize that.
The limit is higher for speeded machines; according to discussion in 124272 Tooltip for automated insertion limit of burnable fuel is often wrong, it may be 3 seconds worth of fuel.
h.q.droid
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2024 12:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by h.q.droid »

I think the biggest problem is the lack of self-sustaining nutrient setups without Gleba dependence. Even if nutrient mechanism were good enough for its annoyance, it's not really usable outside Gleba (or Nauvis) right now.

They should allow planting fruits outside Gleba in a biodome or something. I mean we've been recycling soil for biter eggs, we'd as well stack that soil on top of our space platforms and make them useful. Gleba can stay unique with pentapod eggs.
CyberCider
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:23 am
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by CyberCider »

h.q.droid wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:40 am I think the biggest problem is the lack of self-sustaining nutrient setups without Gleba dependence. Even if nutrient mechanism were good enough for its annoyance, it's not really usable outside Gleba (or Nauvis) right now.
You send rockets of calcite from Vulcanus, sending rockets of bioflux from Gleba is the same. I send bioflux to Vulcanus and it really helps with my coal usage, as coal liquefaction requires a lot of cracking. Sure it spoils every 2 irl hours, but I can just top it up with a new batch. It’s 1k bioflux per rocket from the planet where rockets grow on trees.

I don’t use biochambers on Fulgora and Aquilo, not because they’re annoying to use, but because they’re not useful there. Aquilo has its own rocket fuel recipe, and on Fulgora you have so much solid fuel and water that you’re usually actively destroying it.
neoChaos12
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:43 am
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by neoChaos12 »

CyberCider wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:46 am
h.q.droid wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:40 am I think the biggest problem is the lack of self-sustaining nutrient setups without Gleba dependence. Even if nutrient mechanism were good enough for its annoyance, it's not really usable outside Gleba (or Nauvis) right now.
You send rockets of calcite from Vulcanus, sending rockets of bioflux from Gleba is the same. I send bioflux to Vulcanus and it really helps with my coal usage, as coal liquefaction requires a lot of cracking. Sure it spoils every 2 irl hours, but I can just top it up with a new batch. It’s 1k bioflux per rocket from the planet where rockets grow on trees.

I don’t use biochambers on Fulgora and Aquilo, not because they’re annoying to use, but because they’re not useful there. Aquilo has its own rocket fuel recipe, and on Fulgora you have so much solid fuel and water that you’re usually actively destroying it.
I think you've missed my point. If I'm going to rely heavily on rocket transport anyways, Gleba really loses almost all of its value apart from the fact that it is a technology gate. As a newcomer to Gleba, it is really not intuitive what makes Gleba valuable and why I should bother slogging through it. That is the first and foremost issue. Once I've gotten to the point that I can ship agri science off of Gleba reliably, Gleba is already a solved puzzle. The problem is that Gleba fails to motivate me to reach that point in the first place!
neoChaos12
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:43 am
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by neoChaos12 »

Muche wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 12:37 am
neoChaos12 wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:36 pm I suggest allowing players to easily control the buffer sizes for burnable fuels. [...]
Similarly, if I'm pushing a buliding's power consumption up to insane levels, I would maybe want it to stock up on perhaps an entire stack of nutrients.
Biochambers can read their fuel and send it onto circuit network now; if the default limit 5 is too high for your design requirements, you can utilize that.
The limit is higher for speeded machines; according to discussion in 124272 Tooltip for automated insertion limit of burnable fuel is often wrong, it may be 3 seconds worth of fuel.
You are correct, I had missed that option in 2.0! That does make things a lot easier for me. On that note, though, I'm having trouble figuring out how to disentangle the amount of fuel in a biochamber that produces nutrients from a buffer of nutrients buliding up in its output. Let's see if I can come up with a solution to this riddle.
Muche
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by Muche »

neoChaos12 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:34 pm I'm having trouble figuring out how to disentangle the amount of fuel in a biochamber that produces nutrients from a buffer of nutrients buliding up in its output. Let's see if I can come up with a solution to this riddle.
It is possible to subtract produced nutrients from the current contents with this circuit contraption (however this version breaks if output nutrients spoil inside the machine):
neoChaos12
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:43 am
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by neoChaos12 »

Muche wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 6:20 pm
neoChaos12 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:34 pm I'm having trouble figuring out how to disentangle the amount of fuel in a biochamber that produces nutrients from a buffer of nutrients buliding up in its output. Let's see if I can come up with a solution to this riddle.
It is possible to subtract produced nutrients from the current contents with this circuit contraption (however this version breaks if output nutrients spoil inside the machine):
Thanks for sharing! I ended up devising a solution that limits excess production of short-lifetime spoilables instead, but I appreciate the help. :)

Back on topic, I still feel that Gleba lacks an on-arrival motivator, even though I don't mind getting more into circuits (my Nauvis base already has modularized power distribution with priority, just because).
CyberCider
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:23 am
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by CyberCider »

neoChaos12 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:32 pm I think you've missed my point. If I'm going to rely heavily on rocket transport anyways, Gleba really loses almost all of its value apart from the fact that it is a technology gate. As a newcomer to Gleba, it is really not intuitive what makes Gleba valuable and why I should bother slogging through it. That is the first and foremost issue. Once I've gotten to the point that I can ship agri science off of Gleba reliably, Gleba is already a solved puzzle. The problem is that Gleba fails to motivate me to reach that point in the first place!
I don’t get what you mean. Foundries rely heavily on imports too, so do you think foundries are useless too? This sounds like cherrypicking to me. Also, why are you even so opposed to rocket imports? There’s really nothing scary about them. You’re playing “Space Age”, why are you so surprised that some items have to travel through space?

If you’re not sure what Gleba will unlock, because it’s not “intuitive” to you… Maybe look at the tech tree? That’s kind of what it’s there for. I mean, how do you even choose your planet order if you don’t know what each of them will unlock? Do you choose them based on which looks the prettiest?
h.q.droid
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2024 12:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by h.q.droid »

CyberCider wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 8:41 am I don’t get what you mean. Foundries rely heavily on imports too, so do you think foundries are useless too? This sounds like cherrypicking to me. Also, why are you even so opposed to rocket imports? There’s really nothing scary about them. You’re playing “Space Age”, why are you so surprised that some items have to travel through space?

If you’re not sure what Gleba will unlock, because it’s not “intuitive” to you… Maybe look at the tech tree? That’s kind of what it’s there for. I mean, how do you even choose your planet order if you don’t know what each of them will unlock? Do you choose them based on which looks the prettiest?
Foundries don't rely on "imports" because calcite is free in space after Gleba. And with imports, importing nutrient for oil cracking productivity feels less attractive when one can just import oil barrels from Fulgora or Nauvis. Or throw down coal / carbon from space.

Nutrients feel clunky because they spoil and need more infrastructure setup than alternatives. Right now it's more of a deadend puzzle than an empowering component useful for other puzzles.
neoChaos12
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:43 am
Contact:

Re: Gleba feels unsatisfying because it doesn't go far enough

Post by neoChaos12 »

CyberCider wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 8:41 am
Foundries rely heavily on imports too, so do you think foundries are useless too?
Not entirely, foundries have a massive utility even without calcite due to the in-built +50% production bonus even for recipes that don't rely on Calcite


CyberCider wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 8:41 am
Also, why are you even so opposed to rocket imports?
CyberCider wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 8:41 am
If you’re not sure what Gleba will unlock, because it’s not “intuitive” to you… Maybe look at the tech tree?
I'm not opposed to rocket imports. I engage quite actively with the system. I was simply trying to isolate Gleba in order to highlight it - not implying that I don't want to use rockets. Again, refer to my comparison with lava and foundries. It's not that I didn't look at the tech tree before deciding the sequence I want to visit the planets in; it is that upon landing, Gleba didn't seem meaningful. As opposed to Vulcanus, which almost immediately made me say, "Hey, I need to solve this riddle ASAP in order to be able to use foundries!" (and I am referring to setting up rocket exports as solving the riddle here), Gleba gave me the feeling "Hey, these techs are locked behind this really frustrating gate just because." Again, to reiterate, I'm not saying Gleba doesn't lead to useful techs on the tech tree. I'm saying that Gleba, in terms of game design, fails to invoke any sense of impending reward for solving it and fails to motivate players to engage in the Gleba mechanics.
CyberCider wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 8:41 am
I mean, how do you even choose your planet order if you don’t know what each of them will unlock? Do you choose them based on which looks the prettiest?
Come now, no need to dunk on people with different playstyles. I imagine a good number of people actually did just unlock all three planets, then read their descriptions and went with whichever one they found most interesting. Absolutely fair playstyle, in my opinion. The game doesn't really say anything about the order of doing things, but it sure will suck any motivation to play SA further out of anyone who chooses Gleba first. This is also why I consider it important to look at Gleba from the perspective of someone who barely managed to scrape together one single space platform that was essentially lost after dropping them off at Gleba (happened to me and Vulcanus).

Essentially, if you get stranded on Vulcanus, Fulgora or Gleba with nothing else on hand (which is a real possibility for your first planet), how is the experience? For Gleba, I'd argue it is significantly worse than the other two.
Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”