Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

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CyberCider
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Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by CyberCider »

TL;DR
The railgun damage tech is useless past the first few levels, and railguns can oneshot demolishers far too easily with no upgrades. Giving railguns finite piercing power dependant on their damage would fix both of these problems.
The problems
1) Railguns oneshot even the biggest demolishers with only a few damage upgrades. That’s simply too strong too soon. And this is clearly due to a hitbox quirk, and not because their damage values were made to be that strong.
2) Railguns have two “infinite” techs, but both of them are functionally capped at level 2. That’s right, 2. And they’re not even a super expensive two levels, the techs have the same cost and scaling as the gun damage tech. Speed is capped because railguns have a turning animation, which isn’t sped up by the tech. And damage is capped because, once you’re able to oneshot huge asteroids, that’s all the damage you’ll ever need.
The fix
Well, first, the firing speed thing is obviously just a technical fix. Not much to say about it.

But my real proposal is about the issue of the damage tech, and demolishers. I believe that if railgun shots behaved more like cannon shells, both of these problems would be fixed. Currently, railgun shots apply their full damage to every target they pierce, and the only limit is their range. But I think the shots should deal damage to one target, and only pierce it if they have more damage left to deal. So their damage would diminish with each pierced target, until eventually the shot is stopped.

If demolishers weren’t hit in each pierced segment simultaneously and for the full damage, then they could much more effectively tank the damage. And with asteroids, while a single huge asteroid could still be oneshot at damage level 2, you would still want more levels in order to be able to hit more asteroids behind it. The “railgun damage” tech would essentially take the role of a “railgun piercing power” tech, which would be much more balanced.
Reasoning
Of course, it’s clear that I what I’m suggesting is essentially a nerf to railguns. But it’s with the goal of giving the railgun damage tech a reason to exist. If railguns were indeed meant to be very strong from the start, why would they need infinite techs? It’s one thing for most productivity techs to be capped at level 20-something, this is capped at level 2! At that point, it should just be a finite tech with a few levels, because there’s really no point to it being infinite. And the demolisher thing is simply inexcusable, it should definitely be fixed in one way or another, no matter what. Demolishers are supposed to be the one single challenging thing about Vulcanus.
Last edited by CyberCider on Sat Jan 18, 2025 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jaylawl
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Re: Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by jaylawl »

A handheld railgun on Vulcanus feels like a modded in / cheat-code style weapon. It doesn't feel right to one-shot and pop these formerly terrifying creatures out of existence in a single shot. It feels completely wrong.
Tinyboss
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Re: Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by Tinyboss »

jaylawl wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:15 pm A handheld railgun on Vulcanus feels like a modded in / cheat-code style weapon. It doesn't feel right to one-shot and pop these formerly terrifying creatures out of existence in a single shot. It feels completely wrong.
Your opinion is totally valid, but I have a different one. I like that every enemy can eventually be trivialized. I certainly wouldn't say that about every game, but I think it's the right design choice for Factorio.
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Re: Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by jaylawl »

Tinyboss wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 5:27 pm
jaylawl wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:15 pm A handheld railgun on Vulcanus feels like a modded in / cheat-code style weapon. It doesn't feel right to one-shot and pop these formerly terrifying creatures out of existence in a single shot. It feels completely wrong.
Your opinion is totally valid, but I have a different one. I like that every enemy can eventually be trivialized. I certainly wouldn't say that about every game, but I think it's the right design choice for Factorio.
I agree with you and i wouldn't neccessarily ask for a nerf on the handheld railguns. Those may be a more specific case of a little psychological engineering. Make it a bit more "look hard, play easy". I agree that it should be possible to trivialize killing demolishers, but i wouldn't say that merely crafting a handheld railgun is sufficient for that.
CyberCider
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Re: Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by CyberCider »

Tinyboss wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 5:27 pm Your opinion is totally valid, but I have a different one. I like that every enemy can eventually be trivialized. I certainly wouldn't say that about every game, but I think it's the right design choice for Factorio.
Oh, I don’t disagree with that. Notice that I said “too easy too early”, instead of simply “too easy”. I would be completely fine with railguns dispatching big demolishers easily, just not immediately once they’re unlocked. But with a double-digit damage upgrade and a decent amount of firing speed, now that would be appropriate in my eyes.
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Re: Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by Tinyboss »

CyberCider wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:25 pm Oh, I don’t disagree with that. Notice that I said “too easy too early”, instead of simply “too easy”. I would be completely fine with railguns dispatching big demolishers easily, just not immediately once they’re unlocked. But with a double-digit damage upgrade and a decent amount of firing speed, now that would be appropriate in my eyes.
Right. I was replying to the other poster who if I understand correctly doesn't think the big demolishers should become trivial at all.
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Re: Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by FlachFritz »

I came to the same conclusion about railguns. Please incorporate some of these improvements or something similar that makes railguns less "broken" from the start.
Mr Wednesday
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Re: Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by Mr Wednesday »

jaylawl wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 12:15 pm A handheld railgun on Vulcanus feels like a modded in / cheat-code style weapon. It doesn't feel right to one-shot and pop these formerly terrifying creatures out of existence in a single shot. It feels completely wrong.
You can one-shot demolishers (small ones at least) with Nauvis tech. A handheld railgun isn't the only way to do it.
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Re: Several railgun issues, and a fix for them

Post by supremecool »

+1 to this, I was about to post the exact same suggestion of making railgun damage decay after each enemy it pierces.
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