The +300% productivity cap should be documented in-game or removed

[NOiZE]

At the very least, please cap the infinite technologies at level 30. This is technically a bug right now -- the in game tooltips tell you they will increase the productivity to 310%+, but they actually do not. It's a trap for people not paying attention, resulting in a huge amount of wasted time and science packs.

Given how much the devs obviously care about the quality of their game, it's sloppy to leave this as it currently is. If mods want to remove the 300% cap and make these technologies infinite again, they can totally do that.

+1, Fully agree

[Green Cat]

Remove infinite research if it's capped. Any of the infinite research that are capped shoud be limited.

Why shoud someone spend months doing lab productivity bonus only for week later to realise they hit a cap that they didn't even know that it exist?

Plus with such removal, people will be aware it exist, thuse mod time.

Also, I absolutly do not understand WTF this cap limit is "fair" or neccesary taking in account how much time, research, dedication, and build is needed to reach that. It's something we worked on and we are not allowed to get more because it upsets some random people that it's to OP.... when people did how much work to get it?

[Nemoricus]

Research productivity is not capped. Recipe productivity like for low density structure is capped to prevent recycling from becoming net positive.

[kitters]

Module descriptions don't mention which modules cannot be used in beacons

Beacons are after modules in a tech tree, modules don't know about beacons.
A beacon mentions what kind of modules it can use.

Did you add this for a round number or what?

[evanrinehart]

limiting the infinite researches to specifically level 30 on the grounds that 31 would have no effect on certain machines makes no sense. Machines with +50% prod bonus stop seeing the benefit even sooner, machines with prod modules even sooner.

Finally, a mod might add an effect with minus prod I.e. productivity penalty. Then level 31 or more might be needed to offset that. And it would be silly for such a mod to go figure what the new maximum level should be instead of leaving it infinite. Let the bonuses and penalties and caps be independent

[Nemoricus]

And it would be silly for such a mod to go figure what the new maximum level should be instead of leaving it infinite.

I would very strongly argue the reverse. It's the mod's responsibility to adjust the base game when the base game's values don't suit the needs of that mod.

If a mod needs a productivity research to have a higher cap, it should be the responsibility of the mod maker to adjust the cap.

[jaylawl]

At the very least i have added the information to the wiki (but i also think the information should be available in-game somehow).

Related: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=122548&p=656404#p656404

[Gaagaagiins]

Module descriptions don't mention which modules cannot be used in beacons

Beacons are after modules in a tech tree, modules don't know about beacons.
A beacon mentions what kind of modules it can use.

Did you add this for a round number or what?

I feel that OP's criticism is totally fair, here, actually, not because beacons don't communicate what modules they can accept, because they do, but because neither the tooltip for beacons or the description in the Effect Transmission research entry does.

What they both say is that beacons "transmit the effects of modules to nearby machines." There is no implication whatsoever that it's referring to specific modules only, only half of the available ones as well, now. As far as I know, to receive clear communication from the game that beacons can only accept and transmit the effects of certain modules, you either need to click on a beacon or a ghost of a beacon placed in-game and then mouse over its module slots, or, attempt to place an invalid module into a beacon and get the error message.

I think OP has a point in that adjusting the tooltip to clarify that beacons "transmit the effects of certain modules to nearby machines," or even just "transmit the effects of speed and/or efficiency modules to nearby machines," would be better. In the case of the latter, there's no ambiguity, and in the case of the former, there's a balance between helpful information to receive in advance (if only certain modules can be used I had better figure out which ones are possible to use first) and ambiguity that would prompt further experimentation.

[Green Cat]

I did not read all post

My question is: was this cap removed? What else is capped?

Sorry, if the limit is at level 30, and you have NOT used any kind of mods, console, any type of cheat, NO DOWNLOADED BLUEPRITNS, how many hours, if not hundrends, of hours where needed to reach level 31? only to realise... nothing????

If someone use mods, of course they can cheat in any way. But if someone is playing with no mods or anything, I fail to understand why such limit should even exist. As reaching thoes level, is essentially your rewards for playing the game for so long.

Everything legendary is possible without limit cap!!!????? Wait a second, we PAID for the dlc to access the Legendary quality, and you wish to tell me we are forbbident from haven a 100% legendary factory? yeah, as far as I'm aware, the only one who is against rememoving the cap, is someone who dosen't undertstand that they are telling others how to play the game, not in a fun way, but how to prevent others from being to OP in their own game and factory others build.

Removing the limit is the best thing. If some snowflacks are not happy with limitless research, they should just not research beyond level 30. And it's not accetable that thoes who want to go beyond, are not allowed because someone didn't like the ideea.

Anyways, again, anyone knows if this limit was removed? Or what, is this another thing we needs mods to fix the paid dlc?

[IsaacOscar]

I did not read all post

My question is: was this cap removed? What else is capped?

The 300% productivity cap on crafting productivity is still there. It applies to the total productivity bonus (so bonus from research, bonus inherit to the crafting machines, and bonus from modules).
It does not apply to mining drills, pumpjacks, or labs.

See my comment here viewtopic.php?p=649979#p649979 as to why the cap is there. Also I'm not sure what that has to do with having a 100% legendary factory. (All your buildings can be legendary, but there're some resources you can't get in legendary form without using a recycler or quality module, which always gives you a chance of getting a non-legendary item).

The speed of space platforms is also caped as the speed depends on the number of thrusters, but is decreased by the width of the platform (unless you take advantage of a bug that lets you put multiple thrusters vertically on top of eachother). The acceleration though might not be capped (i.e. time it takes to get to max speed), I'm not sure.

[solzin]

Solution: reduce the 25% recycling returns proportionately for each item-productivity level over 30 you research. That way players might be dissuaded from going over 30, because you'll need more and more recyclers, and you can keep both productivity and recycling in the game.

Otherwise, definitely, making the prod techs infinite feels very careless.

[IsaacOscar]

Solution: reduce the 25% recycling returns proportionately for each item-productivity level over 30 you research. That way players might be dissuaded from going over 30, because you'll need more and more recyclers, and you can keep both productivity and recycling in the game.

Otherwise, definitely, making the prod techs infinite feels very careless.

I don't think researching a technology should ever be harmful.
In particular, this will make Fulgora harder, as often you want to recycle things like Processing Units, that you got from recycling scrap; but these things did not benefit from any productivity bonus."
Of course if the amount you get from recycling scrap is also increased when you get a productivity research, it may make sense...

[evanrinehart]

Making recycling suck more when you're in the late game researching level 30 stuff kind of makes sense. You've already beat the game and need more of a challenge!

Seriously though I'm not sure there's an actual problem to be actually solved with the prod cap. It's good the way it is.

[DefGie]

Seriously though I'm not sure there's an actual problem to be actually solved with the prod cap. It's good the way it is.

The problem is something like half the "infinite" research technologies are dishonest, because they're not functionally infinite. As many people have said throughout the thread, simply changing the research to have only 30 tiers so it's clear you're pursuing a maximum would be adequate. Personally I like the idea of finding a way to remove the cap without destroying balance (or fundamentally reworking the productivity system, which is probably a good idea but a good idea for version < 1 somewhere), but that is much harder.

It is an actual problem though, perhaps not high on everyone's priorities.

[evanrinehart]

Is someone really going to silo themselves from all media complaining about this cap, work their way all the way to research level 30, not check any tooltips showing +300 (max) on certain things way sooner, and then be actually upset their infinite item loop failed. It seems contrived but I guess sometimes in-character

[DefGie]

Is someone really going to silo themselves from all media complaining about this cap, work their way all the way to research level 30, not check any tooltips showing +300 (max) on certain things way sooner, and then be actually upset their infinite item loop failed. It seems contrived but I guess sometimes in-character

It's not about loops. The fantasy of an infinite research technology is that it keeps providing more value no matter how far you go. Obviously it's not technically possible for it to be truly infinite, but having such a low and attainable cap breaks the fundamental promise of presenting it as infinite.

Spinning a little off topic, but I'm genuinely confused when people say things like "silo themselves from all media" to not learn how the game works from outside the game. As for me, the world doesn't feed me Factorio-related media without my actively seeking it out. I guess I must live under a rock.

There are lots of external resources to clarify the point seems a poor excuse for the game's self-description to be misleading.

Edit: Admittedly, I jumped the gun a bit with "low and attainable" not having really crunched the numbers. Having completed steel productivity 9 in my own pretty weak base, I'm about 1/5,000 of the way to the max usable level of that particular tech. Still doing quick estimates, but considering biolabs, research productivity, and just much larger-scale and more stable production, it seems to me this is in the range where players with hardcore megabases running unattented surely can hit the maximum. I consider that an offense. In my mind, to simulate infinity, the maximum should be out of reach even to the most dedicated. But, again, simply not pretending to simulate infinity would render the situation inoffensive.

[Arcus]

I mean this whole "you need to cap productivity researches at level 30, think about the poor players who will feel cheated after spending hundreds of hours on researching waaaah" is an absolute nothingburger. If you're actually at the point of being able to research level 30 productivity techs it's not because you actually want or need the bonus productivity, it's for fun and to stress test your postgame factory builds. And if you somehow missed the machine tooltips saying "cap = 300%" well before level 30 you're either not using any productivity modules in assemblers at all (which makes zero sense if you're the kind of player who cares enough about prod bonuses to go for level 30), running the game afk, or just completely failing to pay even a basic modicum of attention. People are just inventing this fictitious hypothetical of a player who is both capable and willing to megabase yet will complain that their time is being wasted.

TL;DR anyone who is actually at the point of being able to pour hundreds of millions of science into a tech doesn't need their hand held.

[IsaacOscar]

FYI: I made a mod that automatically converts infinite technologies to finite ones if they'll stop being useful due to the productivity cap: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/productiv ... logy-limit
Unfortunately, due to bug 125350, the technologies show up in the GUI as if they are only researchable once.

Personally though, I think the the cap should be removed altogether (as is done by https://mods.factorio.com/mod/remove-pr ... rom=search), as it's a lot of work to get to it in the first place, I see being able to generate raw materials is just a reward for hard work.

[Gaagaagiins]

And if you somehow missed the machine tooltips saying "cap = 300%"...

Wait, I thought OP's point was that this information is not in the tooltip, rather, their words are that it is not documented in the game anywhere. I know for sure I've seen certain caps in tooltips, as OP mentioned the efficiency cap is clearly signposted. But I definitely don't recall seeing a productivity cap in any tooltips the same way.

What's the truth here, then? Is the +300% productivity cap in tooltips or not? I don't see it when I go to look for it in a machine tooltip, so, I guess if OP didn't miss it, I have. I see where in the tooltip it communicates a Productivity bonus, but not where it communicates the cap. Do you just mean that, should it get to +300%, the bonus just stops increasing, and it should be obvious that that implies there is a hard cap that can't be exceeded? That is not the same thing as pre-emptively communicating that there is a cap.

OP is really making two separate suggestions here--one is that the cap should be removed, and the other is that if the cap is not going to be removed, it should be more clearly communicated. The former suggestion is a little more philosophical than the latter, and I honestly don't care one way or another about it, though I'd probably err on the side of saying that if you want to break the specifically unmodded game by following through on the implications of something being infinitely improvable, I don't see much of a point in capping it arbitrarily, as you've broken the game many times over just to get to that point anyway. However, I really don't see a reasonable argument to not have the cap be more clearly communicated ahead of time. It makes sense and is unobtrusive for the efficiency cap, so why not make it the same for the productivity cap?

I might agree with you that the number of players who would actually be put out by this is a number close to 0,. but the game displaying more information to all players, which players may or may not make gameplay decisions with, isn't hand holding. That's just a silly way of seeing it. I mean, for one, we're talking about a game, and one that is already just about the epitome of self indulgent gameplay to begin with. Who cares if a game helps you play it? It's a game. More importantly though is that OP is correct in pointing out that there are mechanics in the game which operate according to readily available information, and there are mechanics in the game which operate according to information that is generally concealed, and Factorio is uniquely enriched by how much information is intentionally not concealed. Most of the information that is, is concealed for good reason--pressing F5 is a great way to see the benefits of concealing tons of information about how the game is functioning at any given time. You're generally not making decisions based on that information. But, for this small thing I don't see why it can't be communicated more clearly, like with the Efficiency cap. I'd say it's at least a little bit useful to all players, even--if we all had it more readily communicated that productivity bonuses are capped at +300%, it might make something like the base +50% productivity bonus in Foundries/Electromagnetic Plants/Biochambers come off as exceptionally powerful (which is good, because it is exceptionally powerful).

[Muche]

Is the +300% productivity cap in tooltips or not?

AM3-300ProdTooltips.jpg (44.1 KiB) Viewed 373 times