Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

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BadPeteNo
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Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by BadPeteNo »

TL;DR
Support direct Insertion of blue chips, LDS, and rocket fuel into rocket silos and make this optional via a checkbox on the silo UI.

What?
Current state, all items in the game can be direct inserted into rocket and launched with the exception of the ingredients for rocket components themselves.
I propose a checkbox on the rocket interface labeled "Ship Rocket Inserted Rocket Part Ingredients" or something similar.
When this box is checked and a silo would normally reject insertion of additional chips/lds/fuel, any additionally inserted would go to shipping inventory. The box should be unchecked by default.

I'm totally fine with any other approach that allows players to optionally direct insert these items into rocket inventory.
Why?
The current state limitation feels like a workaround that limits game play options. While it could be argued that since this only applies to 3 items in the game it's not a big deal, I assert that it conflicts with specific intended styles of play.

For example, the existence of the Logistics Network Embargo achievement means the devs purposefully incentivize a more challenging alternative playstlyle. Combine this with the fact that Aquilo lacks nearly all the ingredients needed to build rocket parts, and your only option becomes to ship in the parts for the parts, which is needlessly convoluted and adds work for the sake of work and not the value of the challenge. Once the player completes the achievement and is ready to move on, they either need to abandon the strategy they used to get there, or face an increasingly more difficult challenge.


This also increases the logistics challenge as LDS and blue chips both take up far less inventory than the parts required to make them, meaning the player must either produce them directly in orbit (which requires convoluted methods of getting sulfuric acid and plastic on platforms) or build platforms with 10-20x the storage capacity allocated for getting things back off Aquilo.

Note - the above logistics issue becomes a problem even before the player gets the achievement (assuming they want to be able to get themselves or anything else back off the planet they landed on without starting from scratch and building a silo and rockets from scratch).

As the achievement challenges the player to take a less sophisticated path, it seems counterintuitive that they should also have to deal with increased logistical complexities. This limitation is also disproportionately challenging and thus unfairly balanced against users playing Space Age as in the base game, none of this is an issue for unlocking the achievement. While it's reasonable that the challenge should take things to the next step in Space Age, that next step shouldn't become 10x harder than all other next steps in the DLC.

I believe the achievement predates the DLC, and I don't believe the additional complexities were an intended feature, and are instead the compromise of a workaround. The devs may not have considered how blacklisting these 3 items impacted this specific achievement. To this end, I suggest an alternative workaround.

PS - I did consider what it would be like without the checkbox if direct insertion automatically switched to filling inventory after crafting was complete and I think that would harm more standard play styles. If this was the case, players who direct insert with the intended behavior of crafting rockets would now need circuits (which are explicitly described as an optional mechanic in game) to still be able to use inventory at all. It would also require a retrofit to all existing rocket setups, which is not very fair.

PSS - I did read through frequent suggestions to see if this had already been proposed. I'm kind of surprised I didn't find it, though it's entirely possible I didn't look hard enough.
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by Rubicj »

Why not insert into rocket inventory IFF the part assembly slot is full?
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by BadPeteNo »

Rubicj wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:49 am Why not insert into rocket inventory IFF the part assembly slot is full?
If you don't make it manually toggled on by users, it would break all existing setups and you'd need to use circuit logic on every silo to tell inserters when to stop putting in more.
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by Rubicj »

Well when you put it that way it seems obvious. . .
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by Rubicj »

Why not be able to set a recipe in the rocket silo choosing the quality of the rocket being created? Higher quality rockets could have a small (+20%/lvl?) boost to rocket capacity.
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by BadPeteNo »

s6x wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:58 pm You might want to try https://mods.factorio.com/mod/RocketCargoInsertion
Since mods disable steam achievements and this post is regarding a vanilla achievement, a mod doesn't address the issue.
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by Khazul »

I think if the devs are going to re-visit the rocket silo (and IMHO in really needs it for several reasons, this being one of them), then it seems to make more sense to move the production of rocket parts out of the silo into other production machines, leaving the silo to just do the actual rocket assembly which logically makes more sense to me. Currently I feel it is trying to do too much and that is part of the problem - Single Responsibility Principle.

With the rocket part recipe moved, the special case handling for rocket assembly need only be confined to the rocket part leaving all items used for general production to all be handled in the same consistent manner which would feel a lot cleaner.

I guess the silo is the way it is for historical reasons, but there are already mods that effectively do the above, so I see no reason why SA couldn't do this.

With such a change, one must not break existing builds, so such a new behaviour would have to be an opt-in checkbox.
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by bluss »

A smart solution is needed. You can't just let the same inserter that inserts blue chips (for rocket parts) continue to insert blue chips as cargo. It needs to be two different inserters with different jobs. One inserter loads rocket part ingredients, and one inserter loads cargo.

What's an easy way to separate the "two kinds of inserters" or "two kinds of insertions"? If we find a good answer to this, then it might be easy to make this change in the base game.
  • Every inserter has an option "Insert into cargo" that you could enable (default off). This is heavy-handed but would work. Maybe to reduce clutter, it could be hidden if the inserter is not close to a rocket silo?
  • Special filter on the inserter: "processing unit into cargo". This would be a hack of the filter system, and using a specialized recipe as filter. Feels ugly.
  • Wire constant combinator to the cargo inserter and give it the 'insert into cargo' signal (signal would have to be added to the game, or designate an existing signal as having this function). This is also a hack, but could work?
  • (Edit) Opt-in to have specific corner of rocket silo designated for rocket parts or cargo. Taken from 121619.

The mod Space Exploration also had this similar problem they had to solve (and did solve), and 'insert into cargo' would have been a better solution for that mod, possibly? They solved it using reserved slots in the cargo rocket, and you had to read contents and yourself check to not insert too many rocket parts (because they were used both to build the rocket as well as being cargo.)
Last edited by bluss on Tue Dec 24, 2024 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by s6x »

BadPeteNo wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2024 7:27 am Since mods disable steam achievements and this post is regarding a vanilla achievement, a mod doesn't address the issue.
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=100924
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by mmmPI »

s6x wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2024 6:44 pm
BadPeteNo wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2024 7:27 am Since mods disable steam achievements and this post is regarding a vanilla achievement, a mod doesn't address the issue.
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=100924
Ah that would work well with : https://mods.factorio.com/mod/RocketCargoInsertion
:lol:
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by Alfonse215 »

I have a question about the Logistics System Embargo achievement. Doesn't that only require a player not to use the logistics system chests? While the rocket silo functions as a requester chest, I don't think having it request things violates the terms of that achievement.

You could say that a player shouldn't use a rocket silo as an automatic requester if they're going for this achievement. But if the achievement itself considers rocket silo requests to be just fine, I don't think you can argue that the game needs the proposed functionality in order for people to get the achievement.
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by mmmPI »

Alfonse215 wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2024 6:58 pm I don't think you can argue that the game needs the proposed functionality in order for people to get the achievement.
This is correct, but the reasonning is simpler to me :) : you can use belts and inserter to send an empty rocket to space just fine.

The suggestion is about allowing inserters to send a rocket filled with rocket ingredients, which currently the game doesn't allow, inserter do not insert anymore blue chips LDS or Rocket fuel when the rocket is ready.
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Re: Don't Blacklist Blue Chips, LDS, and Rocket Fuel Direct Insertion into Rocket Inventory

Post by Koub »

Related :
121619
121258
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.
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