[2.0.28] Upgrading quality of existing power pole creates new & unnecessary wires

[Hares]

Steps to Reproduce

1. Place two medium power poles of normal quality such that they are conencted to each other
2. Place big power pole such that it can reach only one of these medium poles
3. Upgrade the other medium pole to higher quality such that its wire reach is now enough to connect to the big power pole

Expected:

• Medium power pole is upgraded
• Wiring is unchanged

Actual:

• Medium power pole is upgraded
• New, completely redundant wiring is created

See Also

• 100586: [1.1.46] Electric pole ghost removal creates weird connections between other poles
• Initially I also wanted to link a FR suggesting optimize wiring logic so that power poles should not connect to more-distant power poles when there are candidates in the very same (exactly the same) direction of exactly the same prototype, already connected to the pole in question (i.e., when you have "1-2" and place "1-2 3" in row, "3" should connect to "2" and not to "1"), but somehow I didn't find such topic.
  I belive our beloved moderators can help me in this problem, and will link such FR. And if does not exist -- I will be forced to create it because that wacky behaviour drove my OCD crazy since 1.1, and higher quality poles make things only worse.

Click to expand the recording

Click to trigger OCD

[mmmPI]

Expected:

• Medium power pole is upgraded
• Wiring is unchanged

On the contrary, i would expect the game to try and upgrade the wiring as that may be the purpose of the quality upgrade, why would you upgrade quality if you don't want to increase the reach of wires and potentially create new connexion ? just for the health points ?

[Hares]

Expected:

• Medium power pole is upgraded
• Wiring is unchanged

On the contrary, i would expect the game to try and upgrade the wiring as that may be the purpose of the quality upgrade, why would you upgrade quality if you don't want to increase the reach of wires and potentially create new connection? just for the health points?

Quote edited for typos

Multiple reasons:

1. It is already connected to that network, so the new connection is redundant (it will be reconnected automatically if either is removed)
2. Quality also increases supply area, and most of the time it's the reason for higher-quality MPP
3. I don't speak of placing new MPP, I instead upgrade it, and upgrading means "do what you did before, but better". Their prototype is even the same, so I expect them to behave identically.

[mmmPI]

Quote edited for typos

Always thought "connexion/connection" was like american and british, but it appears that no, "connexion" is just french,now i think if one wanted to correct all the typos, ( it wasn't ) then there would a plural form i think :

"create new connections ?"

[*] I don't speak of placing new MPP, I instead upgrade it, and upgrading means "do what you did before, but better". Their prototype is even the same, so I expect them to behave identically.
[/list]

I don't understand the first reason as a reason of why one would want to upgrade quality

ok for the 2) i understand and find it a good argument

3) I got that you mentionned upgrading them, i appreciate the additionnal information, it helps understanding a bit better. I don't generally upgrade medium power pole , i just switch to substation at some point but IF/when i do upgrade some pole, it's usually also happening that i remove some and roughly shuffle the connections.

I guess the later has more serious implications, such as : should upgrading power pole join 2 networks that were disconnected before if after the quality upgrade of the pole they can connect due to the higher reach ?

[Hares]

Offtopic

Always thought "connexion/connection" was like american and british, but it appears that no, "connexion" is just french, now i think if one wanted to correct all the typos, (it wasn't) then there would a plural form i think :

"create new connections ?"
[/quote]
Think of X as [KS] *before consonants) or [S/Z] (before vowels), connections are [KT].
Also, both single and plural are OK in the sentence above, depending on the context.

Also:

• "mentioned" & "additional" only 1n
• There should be no space before punctuations except for "—" (it's optional there) and opening brackets (it's required there)

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• I don't speak of placing new MPP, I instead upgrade it, and upgrading means "do what you did before, but better". Their prototype is even the same, so I expect them to behave identically.

I don't understand the first reason as a reason of why one would want to upgrade quality

On the recording attached, there's none. However, on the same recording you can see multiple pumps on the station to the left for higher throughput. My train stop design normally uses only one, and right-most of these pumps can't be reached by Q1 MPP, so Q2+ is required. After upgrading it, I noticed that strange behaviour of adding new wires to my OCD-perfect design.

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3) I got that you mentioned upgrading them, i appreciate the additional information, it helps understanding a bit better. I don't generally upgrade medium power pole , i just switch to substation at some point but IF/when i do upgrade some pole, it's usually also happening that i remove some and roughly shuffle the connections.

Some reasons for that:

• Tight beaconed build, substations can't always fit there. For example, I needed Q2+ MPP to reach inserter on the other end of chemical plant. See the recording attached for this topic: 124904: [2.0.28] Dragging power pole upgrade results in redundant poles.
• MPPs are only 1x1, so they can perfectly align with the gaps between the wagons. It's quite common to use them in such way.
  No exceptions

  

  12-22-2024, 15-20-45.png (2.77 MiB) Viewed 299 times

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I guess the later has more serious implications, such as : should upgrading power pole join 2 networks that were disconnected before if after the quality upgrade of the pole they can connect due to the higher reach ?

That's a good question. I assume yes.

[mmmPI]

Also, both single and plural are OK in the sentence above, depending on the context.

I meant the plural !

Some reasons for that:

• Tight beaconed build, substations can't always fit there. For example, I needed Q2+ MPP to reach inserter on the other end of chemical plant. See the recording attached for this topic: 124904: [2.0.28] Dragging power pole upgrade results in redundant poles.
• MPPs are only 1x1, so they can perfectly align with the gaps between the wagons. It's quite common to use them in such way.

I see those as example of where to use quality power pole, but not example as where I personnaly would want to "upgrade" them, as i would generally not build setup smart enough to have a functionning stage with the lower coverage of the low quality MPP while having planned to upgrade them later and not have overlap. I think the setup on the menu show a place where it would just create overlap to upgrade pole and not gain useful coverage. I think this is only relevant to the topic because roughly "the context in which you upgrade your pole", "why/when you upgrade them" is insightful for the next point. ( i'm explaning why i don't have a strong opinion on this, i'm not upgrading my poles ).

should upgrading power pole join 2 networks that were disconnected before if after the quality upgrade of the pole they can connect due to the higher reach ?

That's a good question. I assume yes.

I would have though it would be better if not. Because it will be difficult for the game to know wether or not you like/want the additionnal connexion that is allowed by the higher reach BUT will mess up the pattern you created/ make a diagonal. It seem to me currently the game would create this desired additionnal connection from the extra reach, but also create unwanted connexion. I think there are arguments also for the 2 electrical network not connecting , that would create a behavior where poles do no update at all connections when upgraded in quality and be consistent. but risk being unsatisfying for players that don't feel so strongly about organised electrical grid and feel like they have some manual wiring forced on them.

[Hares]

I see those as example of where to use quality power pole, but not example as where I personnaly would want to "upgrade" them, as i would generally not build setup smart enough to have a functionning stage with the lower coverage of the low quality MPP while having planned to upgrade them later and not have overlap. I think the setup on the menu show a place where it would just create overlap to upgrade pole and not gain useful coverage. I think this is only relevant to the topic because roughly "the context in which you upgrade your pole", "why/when you upgrade them" is insightful for the next point. ( i'm explaning why i don't have a strong opinion on this, i'm not upgrading my poles ).

AH. I see now.
I am designing these setups, so I placed Q1 MPP there (i.e., copied from other design), added new entities, old design no longer works, and thus I need to replace some/all Q1 MPPs with Q3.

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should upgrading power pole join 2 networks that were disconnected before if after the quality upgrade of the pole they can connect due to the higher reach?

That's a good question. I assume yes.

I would have though it would be better if not. Because it will be difficult for the game to know whether or not you like/want the additional connection that is allowed by the higher reach BUT will mess up the pattern you created/ make a diagonal. It seem to me currently the game would create this desired additional connection from the extra reach, but also create unwanted connection. I think there are arguments also for the 2 electrical network not connecting, that would create a behavior where poles do no update at all connections when upgraded in quality and be consistent. but risk being unsatisfying for players that don't feel so strongly about organised electrical grid and feel like they have some manual wiring forced on them.

You're right. I changed my mind on that part of topic.