Add elevated big power pole in fulgura together with elevated rails, or lower foundation tech requirements

[BlueTemplar]

Again, Why the heck you keep bring the elevated rail...

Elevated rails ??
elevated_rails.jpg

Yah, and why are you reference elevated rail....

Ok you definitely don't get it so to be perfectly clear, the suggestion is about getting to Fulgora and researching elevated power poles there. In case you still think I am talking about elevated rails.... I did mention since we know how to build a study enough structure to pass freaking trains, making power lines should be easy, and I also said it COULD be unlocked with elevated rails.

one still has to get there, deal with the small island or big oil gaps, make the science, make some research, and at that point, one should be able to then deal with the gaps, power, oil fill, etc.

in case it was not clear yet again...

Please don't try to gaslight me, maybe that's what you meant, but that's not what you wrote here :

One don't need to finish the game to be able to make elevated rails, you get it on Fulgora, just do some Fulgora research and you unlock it, at the same time we should just get a way to add power connection as well, that simple.

«You get it on Fulgora, just do some Fulgora research and you unlock it» clearly refers to elevated rails in this phrase, and not «power connection», considering that there's an «at the same time» in between.

You probably confused Elevated Rails with Rail Support Foundations,
(also, that one requires both Fulgoran and Vulcanus' science, so if you were to say that «you unlock it on Fulgora», that would still be misleading),
which seems to be an easy mistake to make, since I've seen others make it, and I had, when first encountering it in game, to double-check myself what terrain exactly you could and couldn't build elevated rails over,
(and I expect yet others to confuse Rail Support Foundations with Elevated Rails + Foundation, for obvious reasons),
but at least please own your mistake instead of trying to gaslight others.

[Dixi]

I think everything is Okay with Fulgora and tech tree for now.
Just don't be lazy and explore around, before starting build.
It's not hard to find reasonably big island with enough scrap deposits.
I'm playing on a random generated map. Bigger islands often have a few scrap deposits about 200-500k. That more then enough to build a base on Fulgora and provide a lot of pots.
If one search some more, he will likely find a better place.

[Sworn]

You probably confused Elevated Rails with Rail Support Foundations,
(also, that one requires both Fulgoran and Vulcanus' science, so if you were to say that «you unlock it on Fulgora», that would still be misleading),
which seems to be an easy mistake to make, since I've seen others make it, and I had, when first encountering it in game, to double-check myself what terrain exactly you could and couldn't build elevated rails over,
(and I expect yet others to confuse Rail Support Foundations with Elevated Rails + Foundation, for obvious reasons),
but at least please own your mistake instead of trying to gaslight others.

No, I did not confuse anything, you did, this post is about having this new tech, and that quote you pulled is doing exactly that, I am not referring to Elevated Rails, I mentioned it as a possibility for where the tech could also be unlocked.

[mmmPI]

The title of the thread => Add elevated big pole in Fulgora together with elevated rails

This means remove from the game the concept of having a small island in which you manage how to use the surface for power & production.

Because then any small island with scrap attached with rails, will also be attached to a large island with accumulators and you will have mining outpost with just mining drills and accumulator island with just accumulator, indeed ruining the challenge of Fulgora.

Sometimes it feel something doesn't add much ,and you read further and you realize the person didn't understand, so you feel like there is a need to explain again.

[Sworn]

I think everything is Okay with Fulgora and tech tree for now.
Just don't be lazy and explore around, before starting build.

That is where I would disagree, I'm not been "lazy", I did as everyone did, just build more, get more islands and trains.
That is not the point.

Why I would say it is not " Okay with Fulgora and tech tree".

Let's get to Aquilo for a sec, so you get there, and have the new heat mechanic, which is fine, then you play with it, and unlocks Fusion Power, which is literally running at a magnitude higher temperature then a simple heat pipe can. Then you would expect to not need a simple heat pipe since the thing is insanely hot and need to be cooled down. But no, that is not the case, you still need to have the heating pipe there.

Now, there are two things to consider here before going back to Fulgora.
One, is that a good design where you need a heating pipe in a building that is literally hotter than the heating pipe? No, it's not, maybe to kick start it up, and then one would switch to that heat mechanic.
Second, from a game dev perspective, pipes and probably every other entity was not design around the heat mechanic, so they could have a lot of work to make use the heat from a normal pipe like steam engines, and the heat from the fusion reactor. The steam turbine is running from steam at 500º which is the same as heat pipe needs to work, so why would a steam turbine need heat pipes? That would be a nice to have, but with a huge trade off in development time (probably). It make sense in game play wise, it feels natural to expect it to do that, but the technical requirements to make it work might be too high.

So now, considering the above, think about this. Why does one need foundation on Aquilo? Just don't, you get ice platform the moment you get there.
Why does one need foundation on Gleba, just don't, landfill is unlocked from Nauvis at green tech.
Why does one need foundation for space? just don't.

Why does foundation even exists? specifically made to "landfill" Vulcanus and Fulgora. Which is the point I am making, at the point where you get Foundation, it is already too late, one already has all the small island in Fulgora that you can possibly imagine, you barely need much space in Vulcanos to worry about lava. But I'm not even putting this as the MAIN goal, it is clearly stated as an alternative, that doesn't require new tech or new building or entity, aka easier route.

The thing is, compared with the Fusion reactor not "using" its heat capability, for a good trade off reason, there is no technical reason to leave Foundation with such high requirement. It is just not a good design, but without a good technical reason, besides an arbitrary decision.

Would rather have it been a combination of Vulcanus and Fulgora tech, just like the Deep Elevated rails support is.
It make sense, feels much more natural and it is unlock at the time you actually make use of it

[Sworn]

The title of the thread => Add elevated big pole in Fulgora together with elevated rails

This means remove from the game the concept of having a small island in which you manage how to use the surface for power & production.

Because then any small island with scrap attached with rails, will also be attached to a large island with accumulators and you will have mining outpost with just mining drills and accumulator island with just accumulator, indeed ruining the challenge of Fulgora.

Sometimes it feel something doesn't add much ,and you read further and you realize the person didn't understand, so you feel like there is a need to explain again.

Yes, title say half of that.
No, it does not remove the small island concept.
And I read further and feel like explaining more, Exactly, as you clearly demonstrate that you didn't understand the whole thing

[mmmPI]

Yes, title say half of that.
No, it does not remove the small island concept.
And I read further and feel like explaining more, Exactly, as you clearly demonstrate that you didn't understand the whole thing

Adding elevated big power pole in fulgora toogether with elevated rails is a problem, those tech need to be unlocked at different time to make the player have to deal with splitting a surface between power and production.

Lowering foundation requirement is not appropriate to deal with this. It will make it so player after reaching Aquilo have no incentive to visit back the planets Vulcanus or Fulgora, because then Aquilo would unlock nothing for those.

[Sworn]

Yes, title say half of that.
No, it does not remove the small island concept.
And I read further and feel like explaining more, Exactly, as you clearly demonstrate that you didn't understand the whole thing

Adding elevated big power pole in fulgora toogether with elevated rails is a problem, those tech need to be unlocked at different time to make the player have to deal with splitting a surface between power and production.

Lowering foundation requirement is not appropriate to deal with this. It will make it so player after reaching Aquilo have no incentive to visit back the planets Vulcanus or Fulgora, because then Aquilo would unlock nothing for those.

It should not have to have an incentive to go back to other planet, incentive should be to go out solar system and shattered planet, one should not go to aquilo to unlock tech for Fulgora or Vulcanus, one should go there for two reasons, 1, one just want to go there. 2, fusion power!

Adding elevated big power pole in fulgora toogether with elevated rails is a problem, those tech need to be unlocked at different time to make the player have to deal with splitting a surface between power and production.

Yes, agreed, getting it early in nauvis is too early for sure, my original suggestion was to have it in Fulgora itself, or could be a combination with Vulcaus as well.

[BlueTemplar]

I guess some of the disagreement is about this stance :

[...]
Most Aquilo unlocks (foundation, legendary, fusion, artificial spawners) are “useless” to the average player, they’re meant for megabasers.

So there seem to be two kinds of players here : those who want to have the «megabase» tools ASAP,
and those that want them to be earned, and pushed to the endgame.

I think we also see this conflict (but earlier) in complaints about cliff explosives having been pushed out to Vulcanus ?

EDIT : And pretty much what you've said already, my bad :

Some might like to after finishing the game, go back and rebuild the entire thing from scratch, others don't.

That is exactly why we have other threads like "Cliff Explosives" bringing the exact same topic simple because such simple tech got pushed further down another planet.

[Sworn]

Well, that would be a good way to narrow it down to a single pain point.
I would disagree of using it for maga bases only. But its a good point

[mmmPI]

It should not have to have an incentive to go back to other planet, incentive should be to go out solar system and shattered planet, one should not go to aquilo to unlock tech for Fulgora or Vulcanus, one should go there for two reasons, 1, one just want to go there. 2, fusion power!

This is your explanation but to me that seem like willing to get the late game reward stuff early on, as way to alleviate the path on that late game. Defeating the experience of getting there with progression.

Yes, agreed, getting it early in nauvis is too early for sure, my original suggestion was to have it in Fulgora itself, or could be a combination with Vulcaus as well.

Elevated rails are useful in Nauvis, and in vulcanus, and in gleba and in fulgora, whichever you choose first and even before. I think they are well placed in Nauvis and need no change.

Getting power transmission at the same time as rail can be used to transmit scrap is the problem that i mentionned. Getting them both at the same time but later is not making sense to me as relevant.

[Sworn]

Elevated rails are useful in Nauvis, and in vulcanus, and in gleba and in fulgora, whichever you choose first and even before. I think they are well placed in Nauvis and need no change.

Getting power transmission at the same time as rail can be used to transmit scrap is the problem that i mentionned. Getting them both at the same time but later is not making sense to me as relevant.

I'm not saying to move elevated rail research itself up to fulgora. In case it was not clear, I'm mentioning that if we got such elevated power poles, it would make sense to unlock it with elevated rails or at least have its own Fulgora tech.

Could even be over the more advanced rail platform that require both Fulgora and Vuncanus to be unlocked (again, referencing such elevated power pole, not elevated rails), that is still inside the first two planets where one still needs to deal with each planet quirks.

Since this doesn't exist in the game today, the only thing that achieve the same effect is foundation, hance, why the alternative would have foundation lowered.
There are other reasons why I think foundation tech is too late tech, but it only shows up here as an alternative, an easier change to do.

[mmmPI]

In case it was not clear, I'm mentioning that if we got such elevated power poles, it would make sense to unlock it with elevated rails or at least have its own Fulgora tech.

It's clear to me that if they are unlocked with elevated rails it will remove from the game the phase where you only have one and not the other which is the point of Fulgora as there already tech designed specifically to preserve that while giving the player a reward after having built a few packs.

[EustaceCS]

And I read further and feel like explaining more, Exactly, as you clearly demonstrate that you didn't understand the whole thing

I've probably missed you elaborating on this point of mine:

How's that "or-either" situation?
I'm failing to grasp logics of this suggestion.

Due to how Fulgora works, it's technically a planet-wide electric network with a drawback of ZZZZAP!ing stray players (and their cars) and occasional power spikes.
By sheer virtue of this, pole placement tech is redundant.
Since, well, you can connect to infinite (yet spiky) power supply from anywhere.
And there are no enemies nor other hidden time limits which could lock you out of progressing with convenience on Fulgora.

Clean this "tech debt" - and you'll have full right to toss arguments about understanding.
Until then, I don't see any understanding in at least "elevated power poles" regard.

As electricity supply is not a problem on Fulgora and since foundation tech is not 100% mandatory for reasonably sized production of anything (heck, unless RNG screwed you with deep oil ocean placement - foundation tech is plain useless on Fulgora) - this whole theme is an exercise in rhetorics (in its worse sense).

[Tinyboss]

I think it would be helpful here to refocus--what is the compelling problem with Fulgora right now? If it's that we don't always have enough power where we want it, I think that the devs very clearly stated that's one of the core challenges of Fulgora, and completely intended.

If it's something else, it would be good to get it clear, because it seems people are really talking past one another here.

[Ranec1]

I agree that an expensive solution before foundations would be nice. Maybe like 5 larger power lines and a bit of tungsten.

Ironically, it is because lightning actually makes things too easy I think. So not having it is more of nuisance.

I plop down 50-100 accumulators and then never think about it again. If I had 10% of the power from lightning then the little islands might be challenge of bring fuel and ice or similar.

[Rykuta]

Maybe we add a third layer of oil that is "less dense" than the other two of which you can use for some limited "landfilling" in the early-game so you can maybe extend your islands a little or have close islands that can connect to one another more easily without breaking any of the challenge or mechanics of the planet.

Or maybe we tweak the rarity bonuses for big power poles to give far more wire reach rather than area of effect so that making rare power poles might alleviate the issue more. Would certainly be more in-line with the scrapping fun of Fulgora afterall.

===============================================

Just breaking the puzzle by making an easy solve does not sound interesting to me or rewarding gameplay wise.

That said though; I do feel like foundations come out basically right before you win the game and as such wind up being a bit "too late" to have any meaningful impact on gameplay unless you are planning to try and build a megafactory on fulgora post-game. It would be neat if, in general, Aquilo's unlocks were reworked in such a way that they actually encouraged revisiting older planets in order to actually beat the game rather than just being for post-game megabasing. Maybe each planet gets a new more complex production chain that requires aquilo's processors and requires scaling each planet more than you would have needed to previously; thus making foundations and fusion reactors far more desirable to try and establish and no longer making them "too late".

But that's an entirely separate issue.

[Tinyboss]

Maybe we add a third layer of oil that is "less dense" than the other two of which you can use for some limited "landfilling" in the early-game so you can maybe extend your islands a little or have close islands that can connect to one another more easily without breaking any of the challenge or mechanics of the planet.

You can't connect islands without breaking the challenge, though. Your overall power is limited by the area you can harvest lightning from.

Later on Fulgora you can research the better lightning rods which double the amount of energy you harvest per lightning strike, as well as letting you harvest it from a somewhat larger area. You can also make quality accumulators, which get the best quality bonus in the game. (x2, x3, x4, x6 capacity!)

I'll ask again--what is the compelling problem with the current state of affairs that justifies the suggested changes?

[bluegreen1024]

Respectfully, I think something that everyone should try to be clear about to avoid talking past one another is this: Are we talking about
(1) an elevated power pole which can be unlocked before or very soon after reaching Fulgora
or
(2) an elevated power pole which can be unlocked only after building significant industry and research on Fulgora (but before reaching Aquilo)?

My interpretation of the current discussion is that most people who want a change are arguing in favor of something closer to (2), but it seems like others have interpreted the current state of the suggestion as being closer to (1). It matters, because (1) and (2) are quite different: (1) probably does trivialize Fulgora's intended challenge (imho), whereas (2) arguably does not, because one must have already tackled the intended challenge in order to get it.

For my part, I don't support (1), but I think (2) would be at least as good as what exists now, and maybe better. I think the "compelling" problem that some people have with the current state is simply that the winding path from Fulgora to Aquilo and back to Fulgora in order to optimize one's Fulgora factory feels arbitrary and unfun, and (2) would fix that. Some people like backtracking in games, and others really, really don't.

[mmmPI]

Devs : We gonna make late very strong and give tools that trivialize the challenges of the early and mid game.

Some players who didn't realize : I want those tools mid game because otherwise they don't help me beat the game.

Plot twist : you unlock buildings in Aquilo that you can use in Fulgora (cryoplant) , the game already tells you to go to revisit planets multiple times not becaused you missed something and you need to backtrack, but because you have something new to do like Aquilo requiring supply from Fulgora for quantum processor, so you have very strong incentive to go back there, where you have a use for the newly discovered foundation in the vanilla pace, without the need for any change in the pacing.