Quality options for chests and trains

[danbopes]

I'm curious why locomotives, wagons, and chests only have health improvements from quality. I think chest size, cargo size, and maybe fuel slots or locomotive speed are all good targets for higher qualities. I'm curious if there was a justification for these omissions.

[wlkrd1]

I was thinking the same thing. I was hoping that higher quality cargo wagons, chests, etc would get buffs to their storage size with higher quality.
Looking at how the prototypes define their quality bonuses I might be able to make a mod that adds this if there's enough interest and and the Dev's don't get to it first.

[credomane]

Oh dang. Guess I won't setup quality for cargo wagons and trains. I think epic/legendary versions of wagons/trains/cars should get grids. Just large enough to have some solar, maybe a bettery or two, plus a shield and roboport. No more than 3 tall on the epic (no legs for speed) and maybe 4 tall on legendary.

[wlkrd1]

I'm currently poking around how the quality bonuses are defined to see if it's possible to make a mod for this but I'm not having much luck (either i'm looking in the wrong place or i'm missing something.) If I can get it figured out I'll update here.

[wlkrd1]

Bummer. It looks like as of right now what quality affects is currently unchangeable. They would have to make changes to the Modding API in order to do something like that. Which May or may not happen in the Future

[wlkrd1]

They implemented this in 2.0.18

• [space-age] Container sizes increase with quality.

121457

[AileTheAlien]

They only did if for chests though, right? The game isn't showing me a symbol for cargo wagons...

[wlkrd1]

Looks Like it. Bummer. Maybe the next release they will? Seems odd to buff the chests but not the cargo wagons.

[AileTheAlien]

I think epic/legendary versions of wagons/trains/cars should get grids.

I think equipment grids should be a different type of train. (Like, maybe electric.) Quality just increases everything else in the game, but it doesn't add new effects, which would be confusing and/or require a really weirdly-phrased tooltip on the item.

[Tinyboss]

I can see why they didn't do it for trains. It could get messy if cargo wagons of different capacities showed up at your train stop, depending on what you have in your train conditions and/or connected circuit network logic.

[danbopes]

My biggest gripe is none of this is configurable. Mod creators can't edit the quality options at all. They're all hard-coded. I don't understand how at this point they don't realize that mod developers want access to this stuff.

[danbopes]

They implemented this in 2.0.18

• [space-age] Container sizes increase with quality.

121457

Partially* implemented.

[Tinyboss]

My biggest gripe is none of this is configurable. Mod creators can't edit the quality options at all. They're all hard-coded. I don't understand how at this point they don't realize that mod developers want access to this stuff.

Optimization and moddability are usually in opposition, and Factorio is incredibly good by both measures. I really don't think they just "don't understand" that people want it. It's a matter of when they prioritize adding it. Give them the credit they've earned.

[danbopes]

My biggest gripe is none of this is configurable. Mod creators can't edit the quality options at all. They're all hard-coded. I don't understand how at this point they don't realize that mod developers want access to this stuff.

Optimization and moddability are usually in opposition, and Factorio is incredibly good by both measures. I really don't think they just "don't understand" that people want it. It's a matter of when they prioritize adding it. Give them the credit they've earned.

Yes but why add technical debt when you can just implement it correctly the first time? I feel like it's going to be more work to first hard code it and then later on decide to revert those changes to add additional functionality? Why weren't these things just implemented in the first place?

I give them a lot of credit, as it's a great expansion, but as I've tried to jump into modding factorio, I've run into all these issues that pile up and make me frustrated that we could have so much more.

[Tinyboss]

Yes but why add technical debt when you can just implement it correctly the first time? I feel like it's going to be more work to first hard code it and then later on decide to revert those changes to add additional functionality? Why weren't these things just implemented in the first place?

I've been a software dev my whole adult life (and I'm pretty old). Which is only to say that I understand the process. The Wube devs are THE most incredible team I've ever seen. Their obsessive drive for quality and correctness, sustained for over a decade now, is just awe-inspiring. I will never get over how they handled the challenges of achieving perfect determinism in order to get multiplayer working. I don't know who else could have made that happen. And then when they went to stress test it, they didn't have 4 or 8 players either, it was hundreds. Just outstanding.

So, I myself would not consider talking about tech debt, implementations, or design as if I know better than they do what's right for the game they built. But that's just me.

[Dixi]

I want bigger volume wagons with quality. Since wagon size is quite small for now. As I remember a lot of bigger mod packs made wagon cargo bigger in 1.1, Industrial Revolution 3 for sample.

[CyberCider]

iirc the devs said they will never add quality effects for trains, because it’s hard/annoying to replace working trains in a running base. And trains can already be upgraded by quality fuels and networks built for larger sizes.

[BlueTemplar]

I can see why they didn't do it for trains. It could get messy if cargo wagons of different capacities showed up at your train stop, depending on what you have in your train conditions and/or connected circuit network logic.

There are a lot of places already where different qualities can mess things up though, starting with items on belts themselves...

----

[...]
I will never get over how they handled the challenges of achieving perfect determinism in order to get multiplayer working. I don't know who else could have made that happen. And then when they went to stress test it, they didn't have 4 or 8 players either, it was hundreds. Just outstanding.
[...]

Hmm, but why specifically this though ?
Factorio isn't the only game relying on perfect determinism (look up references to multiplayer desync(hronization)).

Arguably, they did it on a bigger scale than most others, but there are some that come close enough :
https://springrts.com/
https://zero-k.info/
https://www.beyondallreason.info/
(and by amateurs, to boot !)

[Tinyboss]

There are a lot of places already where different qualities can mess things up though, starting with items on belts themselves...

Only if you screw it up all by yourself, though.

I'm talking about introducing a change that would mess up factories that were previously designed correctly. That's the point.

[Tinyboss]

Hmm, but why specifically this though ?
Factorio isn't the only game relying on perfect determinism (look up references to multiplayer desync(hronization)).

Of course not. Factorio isn't the only game to do *anything*, just the one that does many things better than any other.

I don't know if you were around that the time, but they devoted a lot of FFF space to discussing the challenges and how they overcame them. The super subtle problems they found and fixed. The test framework they built to avoid introducing new regressions. And as I said, the result, supporting hundreds of players flawlessly, is on another level from anything else I'm aware of. (Yeah, MMOs have more players, but it's not remotely the same thing!)