Feels like certain changes were made to the game 'just because'

[Koub]

I think if one has to ask themself "How can I unlock [XXXXX] ?", and has to find the right action to get the trigger research, then the trigger tech mechanism has been used in a wrong way.

The problem is that not everyone has the same knowledge of the game, and the complete beginner may benefit from more guidance, while the experienced players know their stuff, especially there should be something there, but can't be found.

Let me give an example of how trigger tech could be tuned :
1) Everything relative to Fulgora is unlocked as soon as Fulgora is unlocked
2) The tech for scrap is triggered when a chunk with scrap is generated
3) The tech for scrap is triggered when the fog of war reveals scrap
4) The tech for scrap is triggered when scrap is actually mined

These 4 are valid uses of the triggered tech concept, but will feel very different from the player's perspective, especially depending on if the player knows what is their objective.

[MeduSalem]

I think if one has to ask themself "How can I unlock [XXXXX] ?", and has to find the right action to get the trigger research, then the trigger tech mechanism has been used in a wrong way.

With that reasoning most of the trigger techs were used in the wrong way from my perspective because even though I knew they would be part of the 2.0 update I still had to look up the "right action" for most of them to unlock. At least I had a couple moments that were like "well and now what am I supposed to do to get the next thing?" and then had to go into the research screen to look what you actually need to do/wait for. Didn't really feel "natural" as "part of the flow" as it was intended to. xD


While I think it was an interesting idea and even though initially I wasn't against it, but in the aftermath and with some days off from the game allowing me to see things more objectively I think trigger techs are at least in the top 10 of my personal "annoying parts" about 2.0/Space Age. Definitely not at the top of the list, but part of it for sure.

[KuuLightwing]

Yea, I also agree that often times trigger tech introduced more friction than benefit for me, like having to extract oil before building refineries and so on.

Especially when you need to do a specific thing on a different planet like with nuclear reactor research. If you want steam turbines, you need to mine uranium (or unlock heating tower), but if you are on Vulcanus where said steam turbine would be pretty handy, you obviously can't quite do that. With old style research, the solution is to just research the relevant tech, but with triggers you are going to be locked out of it until you do that rather specific thing.

Even weirder with how quantum processor is locked behind capturing spawners for some reason.

[Panzerknacker]

Yeah it's like somebody went 'ok let's make everything resource-related a trigger tech because it's the same category' without really thinking about the consequences.

To my taste the game simply isnt done yet so I reverted to playing 1.1.110. As for my contribution, I made a few suggestion threads lately to help improve the situation, now it's up to the devs. Will check back in a few months.

[MisterDoctor]

I think if one has to ask themself "How can I unlock [XXXXX] ?", and has to find the right action to get the trigger research, then the trigger tech mechanism has been used in a wrong way.

for me they almost work like quest objectives? I'm not sure if that's the right way or the wrong way. I have to lookup "what is the weird tech to get and how do I get it" and that becomes my objective. and thinking about it, for Factorio, those objectives are WAY too narrow; that might be why they feel weird. in most cases you are constrained all the way down to doing exactly one specific thing. there is no "free play" there is only "aim for that next tech and its very specific unlocking rule".

when I finally get the science pack unlocked it finally feels like I can actually start to play the planet/game. I'm not sure if this is or isn't how it is intended. I'm also not sure what a good alternative would be. maybe two science packs per planet? the intro one and the advanced one? TBH it would be great if my first objective on a planet was to produce and consume some relatively easy science rather than do these weird goals.

I don't think this is a huge issue; just that if I think about it it definitely feels like it could be improved a lot.

(thinking about it, these issues are I think lessened on Gleba since there is such an enormous amount of work to do between arriving and producing science. On Vulcanus and especially Fulgora, where there is very little work to do, it sticks out a lot more.)

(I guess I was talking mostly about the planet ones, but the Nauvis ones are weird also. I'm pretty sure I would rather just research them. but again not a huge issue.)

[BlueTemplar]

A reminder that these are for the first time players first and foremost — I guess Wube noticed that too few people were playing the demo / tutorial scenarios first, and instead jumping straight into freeplay ?

[KuuLightwing]

A reminder that these are for the first time players first and foremost — I guess Wube noticed that too few people were playing the demo / tutorial scenarios first, and instead jumping straight into freeplay ?

I have my doubts that they are all that beneficial for new players either. And not convinced that they weren't possible to implement differently so that they don't disrupt the game flow for more experienced players.

[Vulkandrache]

A reminder that these are for the first time players first and foremost — I guess Wube noticed that too few people were playing the demo / tutorial scenarios first, and instead jumping straight into freeplay ?

Which is an atrocious way of doing things.
New players do not matter. At no point should the game be designed around them.
Thats what the tutorial is for. If people cant be bothered to play it thats their problem.
The game itself needs to be designed to give absolute veterans as smooth an experience as possible.

[vinzenz]

> New players do not matter. At no point should the game be designed around them.

New players are literally the reason Factorio is still around, they keep this whole project funded. Of course this dynamic changed a bit with Space Age which is more for veteran players, but there are no new veterans without new regular players.

[mergele]

I found them a really nice tutorial going to my first planet vulcanus, giving me a little natural, guided tour through what there is and is important here instead of having dig myself through "alright what are the things that are here and what are all the recipies I can do here and how do they interact?" dry.
I also have not felt constraint at all. I set up a production line with what I had, then the next trigger was a easy step and lead me to the next thing to set up.

[Daid]

The game itself needs to be designed to give absolute veterans as smooth an experience as possible.

And that's how many great games died a slow but surely death.

> New players do not matter. At no point should the game be designed around them.

New players are literally the reason Factorio is still around, they keep this whole project funded. Of course this dynamic changed a bit with Space Age which is more for veteran players, but there are no new veterans without new regular players.

Glad to see this post from a Factorio staff member. I love what's been done with the tech unlock by certain crafting, it's a much more guiding experience. Yes, it's a "duh" moment for experienced players, but it's not much of a hurdle as well. While still guiding new players in an otherwise quite big and complicated setup. The 2.0 blue science science experience is completely different AND a lot better then the experience when I started factorio (which was even before the tech tree revamp) as it guides you in easier to understand steps instead of throwing it all at you at once.

(The space platform building experience however, that can use some work in tutorialization/tips)

[Vulkandrache]

> New players do not matter. At no point should the game be designed around them.

New players are literally the reason Factorio is still around, they keep this whole project funded. Of course this dynamic changed a bit with Space Age which is more for veteran players, but there are no new veterans without new regular players.

I didnt say to disregard new players.
I said to not design the game around them.
If someone cant be bothered to learn the basics and then complains about the game being complex
they are not the target audience and the last thing to do is pander to them.

I love what's been done with the tech unlock by certain crafting, it's a much more guiding experience.

Yes, thats exactly the problem.
"Guiding" new players should not be done in the main parts of the game. For even just one simple reason.
Each person is a new player only once. Wereas the annoyance of having to "touch oil"
before your mall is even allowed to produce refineries stays until the end of time.

[MisterDoctor]

I don't think "new players" should matter that much in the Space Age content. This is an expansion, it is specifically NOT for "new players".

Just think of how tense the main game already is when you get biter swarms before you are ready for them? Where is the hand-holding there? Why should the expansion be easier?

[BlueTemplar]

Yes, that's why we're mostly talking about 2.0, and not Space Age (OP doesn't seem to have it ?)

----

I didnt say to disregard new players.

But you did :

New players do not matter.

and

At no point should the game be designed around them.

The «at no point» here matters.

[Tertius]

It seems the current discussion is about the trigger techs. I guess there are different valid approaches from the players. Some look what they're able to craft, then see how to go from there. Some look into the tech tree and see what techs are available and what to do to research.
As a "veteran" player, I have key techs in mind and look into the tech tree how to get there. This is my main "quest" source. I don't look into what I'm able to craft - it's the other way round, it's I'm missing things there and then I'm looking how to unlock what's missing.
I really don't care how to unlock things. If it's research, I'm enhancing my science production. If it's a trigger tech, I go and build/craft that thing.

I welcome trigger techs, because they're free in terms of science packs. However, you cannot just research in advance to have everything around it fully available but not use that tech until you have everything fully available, you actually have to use it from the start. You might see this as interruption, but I see this as process how the engineer iterates over challenges and its solutions, increasing his knowledge while actually building his factory. From tiny and simple to sophisticated. On Nauvis this is rarely implemented, best example is first oil mining, then simple oil processing, then advanced oil processing. You cannot do one before you did the previous one. However with the Space Age content, this is better. For example, you have to craft your first Foundry "by hand" with existing inferior methods, but once you have it, you will do everything with the Foundry from then on. It's how the game tackles the "chicken and egg" problem: you need the thing to craft the thing.

It reminds me how programming language compilers were made: if a C compiler is written in C, how can the first C compiler be compiled without having a C compiler available? So the first C compiler was created with a different programming language, but after that every future C compiler is created with the previous version of itself.

If this interrupts your old workflow to just blast through the tech tree by researching every tech in advance, well, that's not how it works in the real world, and Factorio is a simulation of the real world. And in this case, it's perfectly valid in my opinion to mirror some of the real world procedures. It's not a matter of beginner or veteran player, it's a matter of the simulation. It's better with the trigger tech, feels more natural. I don't know if this is easier for a beginner, it's just a better simulation in my opinion.

[IsaacOscar]

Honestly, I think the game needs more guidance.
There are several things I've only discovered from the wiki or the forums (e.g. the whole concept of 'evolution,bhow to have custom upgrade planners, nuclear reactors are dumb and don't turn themselves off) The game could use some extra tips and tricks.

As for the 2.0 update (excluding space age) I generally like everything they've changed, except how they've nerfed the rocket silo in the base game.

Also I like how trigger techs actively encourage you to do stuff, and not just wait for your base to generate more science (but I'd personally make the requirements stricter, like having to mine a single uranium ore is a bit silly, it should require enough to force you into making an assembly line for the sulphuric acid).

[BlueTemplar]

Evolution is a good example of how it used to be much more hidden but isn't any more with 2.0, we even have the graphs in-game now !
Was nuclear reactor forever burning not described in the first place, is this description new too ?? (I know that at least the Heating Tower has it now.)
And of course for both you could learn from experimenting, the downsides of telling the player too much shouldn't be forgotten...

[IsaacOscar]

Evolution is a good example of how it used to be much more hidden but isn't any more with 2.0, we even have the graphs in-game now !

Really, where?
I keep having to type /evolution to make sure I haven't been destroying too many biter spawners.

Was nuclear reactor forever burning not described in the first place, is this description new too ?? (I know that at least the Heating Tower has it now.)

Well wherever it's described its not somewhere I noticed...
This should be explained in my open, or else you'll just waste fuel cells and probably not even notice. Whereas other things you can learn more from experience.

And of course for both you could learn from experimenting, the downsides of telling the player too much shouldn't be forgotten...

Of course, I'm not suggesting it explain how to make belt balancers or anything that can be worked out yourself from easily observable behaviour.
It's just stuff that's not easy to discover on your own.

[aka13]

11-30-2024, 14-04-54.png (140.05 KiB) Viewed 352 times

It's not that easy to find, and does not display worms, but the graphs are really nice. You need to click on the spawner, they both have graphs now.

[IsaacOscar]

Oh cool, thanks!