Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

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Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by BlueTemplar »

TL;DR
Why wouldn't we be able to power a rocket with normal nuclear fuel (not uranium fuel cell), or even maybe legendary coal ?
Replace rocket part's Rocket Fuel requirement with a Special Burner Fuel requirement.
What?
Now that launching a rocket has been moved to the early-mid game, the rocket part's restriction of only using rocket fuel feels very un-Factorio-like.
And with the addition of Quality, an extra possibility for balancing it presents itself :
make the rocket silo accept most fuels, albeit with minimum restrictions, but which wouldn't be (directly) dependent on item type.
(A bit like how a steam engine can only accept a maximum of 165°C steam, or how a heat exchanger needs a temperature of at least 500°C.)

These restrictions could be one of these, having a minimum value to be accepted by the silo :
- Area (on belt) : energy content of a single item
- Volume (in inventory) : energy content of a single stack of items
- Mass (in rocket) : energy content of the cargo that a single rocket can carry
- Vehicle acceleration
- Vehicle top speed
(or maybe it could even be a combination of several minimum requirements above ?)
(- If some fuels are still too problematic to balance for this, even if restricted to their higher quality versions : Item type)


Higher quality rocket parts, if/when vanilla or mods get these, could be even more restricted in the above.

One remaining question is how to power the silo itself, IMHO it should still be restricted to electricity instead, to separate these requirements, but I could see it going either way... (especially if it's hard to implement)


It might also be interesting if the vehicle speed and/or acceleration bonuses of the fuels (averaged over the course of the recipe ?) also had an effect (besides potentially clearing the minimum bar for viability), for instance :
- vehicle acceleration bonus would increase rocket's max cargo weight
- vehicle top speed would decrease time between launch and arrival
(This one would I guess speed up the animations of the rocket itself, including its cargo mini-rocket landing faster on the space platform ?)
(The silo animation would probably be left out of it, affected by speed modules in or near the silo instead.)

Then fuels would be rebalanced : some fuels to be better at acceleration, others at top speed, and their increases in quality would also be rebalanced to affect these values differently per fuel type.

See also :
Burner Fuel Bonus mod.
More rocket types
Why?
This would bring the rocket silo closer to how other vehicles (and burners) operate and would allow for more options in the mid-late game, while still retaining minimum requirements for balance, especially in early game.

Somewhat related :
Allow higher quality rocket fuel for rocket silo recipe
Allow us to make rocket parts with quality components OR give as a method to lower quality of resources
And maybe :
Allow Boilers to be used in space with Rocket fuel
Last edited by BlueTemplar on Sun Nov 10, 2024 1:45 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by Panzerknacker »

Hmm, a rocket engine is a extremely delicate piece of machinery that really only works with Rocket fuel.

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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by BlueTemplar »

Says who ?
IRL they take a wide variety of fuels, from solid fuel to simple H2+O2.

And so is a car engine, yet we're somehow able to throw coal and even wood into our (non-lubricated yet !) engines.

And anyway, gamelplay >>> realism.
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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by BlueTemplar »

Panzerknacker wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2024 11:44 am
[...]
I don't like the idea of rockets being able to fly on other fuel than rocket fuel, why would there even be rocket fuel in the game then?
[...]
As a better fuel with more complex requirements ?

(What's the 'point' of solid fuel and especially nuclear fuel (not uranium fuel cell) ?)
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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by Panzerknacker »

That's not true, a rocket engine IRL only runs on the fuel it's designed for. Wether that is solid fuel (of a specific consistency for that particular engine) or H2 + O2 (of a very precise mixture for that particular engine), you can't put another fuel in the engine than the one it was designed for, if you don't want it to malfunction or even explode. So it is the same with the rocket in Factorio, we call the fuel it runs on 'rocket fuel' in the game.

A car engine IRL is much less picky about fuel type. A engine that is designed for gasoline can also run on LPG (liquified petroleum gas) or a mixture of gasoline and ethanol, generally without too many problems. Now the car engine in Factorio is a bit extreme when it comes to fuel flexibility.

If the rocket can run on other fuel type we might as well remove rocket fuel from the game or rename it to something trivial like 'improved solid fuel' or whatever. I think we better leave it the way it is.

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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by BlueTemplar »

You keep avoiding the issue of nuclear fuel. :P
or rename [rocket fuel] to something trivial like 'improved solid fuel'
I don't care how it's called. In practice it is improved solid fuel, considering how simple the simplest recipe is (a single extra step insertion in the solid fuel from light oil chain, no other resources required).
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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by AileTheAlien »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2024 10:47 am
This would bring the rocket silo closer to how other vehicles (and burners) operate and would allow for more options in the mid-late game, while still retaining minimum requirements for balance, especially in early game.
You haven't really explained why this flexibility is useful. Is it so that you can refuel the next rocket with fewer cargo wagons? Remove the trains and storage for inferior fuels? Improved launch and travel speed?

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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by BlueTemplar »

The thing with more flexibility, is that I cannot possibly predict all the uses that might open up ! (Especially with all the mods out there...)
(I've already mentioned a vanilla one : using nuclear-enhanced rocket fuel.)

But yeah, it might be interesting if the vehicle speed and/or acceleration bonuses of the fuels (averaged over the course of the recipe ?) also had an effect, probably not on the silo animation, but on the animations of the rocket itself (including its cargo mini-rocket landing faster on the space platform).
Thanks, I'll add this to the first post.

(See also : Burner Fuel Bonus.)
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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by Tinyboss »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:50 pm
The thing with more flexibility, is that I cannot possibly predict all the uses that might open up !
But you should have at least one compelling one when advocating for something to change!

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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by BlueTemplar »

You don't think that being able to use nuclear-enhanced rocket fuel is a compelling one ?
(Or rocket fuels of different qualities.)
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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by AileTheAlien »

:idea: I guess this would also change the amount of fuel you use compared to blue circuits and low density structural, which might be a nice bonus for later-game players. Maybe the fuel could change the maximum payload? This seems like maybe rocket silos could have different rocket recipes with different trade-offs.
  1. The current rocket.
  2. Fission-fuel rocket, with increased payload, so you use less blue and structural compared to fuel.
  3. Space elevator with electricity for fuel, so you're basically only using up blue and structural.

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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by Tinyboss »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:11 pm
You don't think that being able to use nuclear-enhanced rocket fuel is a compelling one ?
(Or rocket fuels of different qualities.)
No, I honestly don't. Can you explain why it would be significantly better to have these options?

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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by Tinyboss »

AileTheAlien wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:22 pm
Maybe the fuel could change the maximum payload?
Hmm...I design some of my platform logistic requests around the cargo size. If I have a request that's larger than the standard size, then how does a silo loaded with regular fuel decide whether to launch as much as it can? Not saying it's impossible to come up with something, but it gets kind of complicated and silo/platform logistics are already a steep learning curve.

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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by BlueTemplar »

Well, just like quality, it would be optional for the player to engage with this mechanic (especially early on), so the learning curve wouldn't be impacted that much.
(And in fact would help with the issues of quality rocket fuel on belt stopping rockets, which does not happen with other vehicles / burners.)

Also, the silo would still require rocket fuel research, and it would still be the minimum non-quality fuel passing the requirements bar, and the player would get an error message if putting a fuel not good enough in the slot about why it's not good enough.
AileTheAlien wrote:[...] Maybe the fuel could change the maximum payload? [...]
Ah, great idea, and we even have two separate fuel bonuses, so for instance :
- vehicle acceleration bonus would increase rocket's max cargo weight
- vehicle top speed would decrease time between launch and arrival
(I'll add it to the top post, thanks.)

Then fuels would be rebalanced : some fuels to be better at acceleration, others at top speed, and their increases in quality would also be rebalanced to affect these values differently per fuel type.
Tinyboss wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:25 pm
Hmm...I design some of my platform logistic requests around the cargo size. If I have a request that's larger than the standard size, then how does a silo loaded with regular fuel decide whether to launch as much as it can?
[...]
Well, think how production sub-factories / ratios are changed with the introduction of higher tier inserters, belts, assemblers, modules and especially beacons.
You might yourself standardize on a specific one (and maybe change it from game to game), or maybe change it depending on the stage of the game... or maybe even will find a more flexible option, who knows ?
Tinyboss wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:22 pm
No, I honestly don't. Can you explain why it would be significantly better to have these options?
Look, if you're not bothered by the differences with other vehicles and especially with nuclear-enhanced rocket fuel just left hanging out there, I guess we just feel differently about this issue...
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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by Tinyboss »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2024 9:31 am
Tinyboss wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2024 9:25 pm
Hmm...I design some of my platform logistic requests around the cargo size. If I have a request that's larger than the standard size, then how does a silo loaded with regular fuel decide whether to launch as much as it can?
[...]
Well, think how production sub-factories / ratios are changed with the introduction of higher tier inserters, belts, assemblers, modules and especially beacons.
You might yourself standardize on a specific one (and maybe change it from game to game), or maybe change it depending on the stage of the game... or maybe even will find a more flexible option, who knows ?
Yeah, I can (and do) have multiple production lines with different ratios, and yeah, they are necessarily designed differently. Nothing wrong there!

But I can't have more than one orbital logistics per planet. There's no way of saying that some platforms want larger cargo deliveries with quality fuel, and other platforms expect standard sizes.

The analogy would be that I can only have a single module configuration for every green circuit assembler on the whole planet.

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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by BlueTemplar »

Can't you, using the new logistic groups ?

And isn't that more like using a different number/type of inserters and chests per wagon / train station ?

And so some space platforms will just get filled faster ?

Also, we do have multiple planets now...
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Re: Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

Post by Tinyboss »

Haha, maybe I wasn't clear. The analogy would be FORCING me to use a single module configuration for green circuits everywhere on the planet.

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