Allow Boilers to be used in space with Rocket fuel

[Panzerknacker]

TL;DR

Allow Boilers to be used on Space platforms but only with Rocket fuel

What ?

I thought it would be cool if Boilers can be used in space for power generation and other processes that require steam. Of course they should only be able to work on Rocket fuel because obviously other types of fuel require air (oxygen) to burn. Obviously it should not be a efficient way to power the platform (or get steam) because Rocket fuel is supposed to be expensive to make and to ship. Without water no steam tho so there should also be a way to unbarrel water without having a initial source of electricity. Maybe the platform hub could generate a tiny bit of electricity, like maximum 1kW.
Obviously all of this needs to be balanced to the other methods of power generation/steam production and this should more act like some emergency or last resort method to do things.

Why ?

I think it's fun if there are more options to generate electricity on space platforms. Also, I personally bumped into a wall when I finally got my first space platform up into orbit, building it up with the asteroid collectors and crushers, only finding out I had no way to power it. It feels a bit odd that you go for the achievement to send a rocket into space without building solar panels, that rocket likely carrying your platform starter pack, only having to immediately research solar power afterwards anyway in order to continue progressing.

[jztemple]

+1 Great idea!

[jdrexler75]

Yeah, I love the idea of taking "steam all the way" to another planet! It's crazy enough that it might (and should!) just work.

Basically, afaict, just two small(?) things are needed to make it work:

1. A small amount of electricity for one slow inserter swing, and unbarreling one water barrel
2. Allowing solid and/or rocket fuel to be burned in space

My idea was to have an onboard engineer start this process, providing electricity treadmill-style while on the platform. But a constant small generation capability regardless of engineer presence would probably be easier to understand. After that it can be self-sustaining as long as enough fuel and water is brought up. At least until ice melting is researched later.

Solid fuel normally also has the oxidizer baked in, so that should work as well. Nuclear fuel should then also be allowed in the boiler in space, since nuclear heat generation doesn't even require oxygen. In fact it's how a lot of real-life spacecraft are powered! (Sadly without steam, but still...) But that would require having done some space science, so it won't help for bootstrapping this.

Still, this could mean that maybe the limitation shouldn't really be the boiler itself, but that only some fuels are usable in space, which don't require oxygen or an atmosphere.

[Panzerknacker]

Great additions, I really like the idea of the engineer being able to generate a tiny bit of electricity while on board.

[Panzerknacker]

The more I think about it the more I envision a smoking and steaming monstrosity of a space platform slowly plowing itself through thick asteroid fields, barely making it with more than half of the cargo bay stuffed with fuel. I want this. I think it will be epic and inefficient and that's awesome. And another reason to use barrels haha!

The suggestion of making the fuel limited to environments instead of the boiler itself is the key part to implement I think.

[Tinyboss]

But a constant small generation capability regardless of engineer presence would probably be easier to understand.

One tiny QoL wrinkle this would add is that we would no longer be able to build things on a new platform without them running.

[BlueTemplar]

How about a separate boiler-like entity that takes item fuel, water, and thruster oxidizer ?

[Panzerknacker]

But a constant small generation capability regardless of engineer presence would probably be easier to understand.

One tiny QoL wrinkle this would add is that we would no longer be able to build things on a new platform without them running.

What do you mean? You are able to build now already without power.

@Bluetemplar
That sounds too advanced, like something that needs to be researched first, defeating the purpose. Also it will be much harder to jumpstart because making the oxidizer requires several machines and plants to work already afaik.

[Tinyboss]

What do you mean? You are able to build now already without power.

Exactly. I can build without any solar panels and my grabbers won't start grabbing. I can get everything laid out without it trying to actually run. If the hub produced a little bit of electricity, then I couldn't do that.

[Squish8294]

Yeah, I love the idea of taking "steam all the way" to another planet! It's crazy enough that it might (and should!) just work.

Basically, afaict, just two small(?) things are needed to make it work:

1. A small amount of electricity for one slow inserter swing, and unbarreling one water barrel
2. Allowing solid and/or rocket fuel to be burned in space

My idea was to have an onboard engineer start this process, providing electricity treadmill-style while on the platform. But a constant small generation capability regardless of engineer presence would probably be easier to understand. After that it can be self-sustaining as long as enough fuel and water is brought up. At least until ice melting is researched later.

Solid fuel normally also has the oxidizer baked in, so that should work as well. Nuclear fuel should then also be allowed in the boiler in space, since nuclear heat generation doesn't even require oxygen. In fact it's how a lot of real-life spacecraft are powered! (Sadly without steam, but still...) But that would require having done some space science, so it won't help for bootstrapping this.

Still, this could mean that maybe the limitation shouldn't really be the boiler itself, but that only some fuels are usable in space, which don't require oxygen or an atmosphere.

Comes up with this awesome idea, forgets burner inserters are a thing. I jest <3

[jdrexler75]

Comes up with this awesome idea, forgets burner inserters are a thing. I jest <3

Haha, thanks, you are not wrong though. I still keep forgetting that they can reliably start themselves now and still fill them manually at first, after all these years... it would be cool if we could also use them to bootstrap our steampunk space platform, but I can't see a way to unbarrel water without having electricity first.

I mean in real life I'd just bring enough batteries but ... yeah. So treadmill it is.

[Panzerknacker]

Maybe the internal 'auxilary power' of the platform hub could be made switchable. Or indeed only when the engineer is present, I'm fine with either. Going even further, maybe the entire power grid of the platform could be switched off with the same switch so power will not be distributed anymore between entities. That could be useful for modifying the platform.

One more reason we need this that I forgot to mention is, It feels a bit odd that you go for the achievement to send a rocket into space without building solar panels, that rocket likely carrying your platform starter pack, only having to immediately research solar power afterwards anyway in order to continue progressing.

Added that to my initial post.

[Tinyboss]

Maybe the internal 'auxilary power' of the platform hub could be made switchable. Or indeed only when the engineer is present, I'm fine with either. Going even further, maybe the entire power grid of the platform could be switched off with the same switch so power will not be distributed anymore between entities. That could be useful for modifying the platform.

One more reason we need this that I forgot to mention is, It feels a bit odd that you go for the achievement to send a rocket into space without building solar panels, that rocket likely carrying your platform starter pack, only having to immediately research solar power afterwards anyway in order to continue progressing.

Added that to my initial post.

Lots of good ideas here. I especially like the global platform power switch! I would use that for sure on already-built platforms during redesigns.

I helped a friend up until space, and we got the "steam all the way" achievement for him. Can confirm that it felt weird that we had solar panels already crafted and had to be really conscious not to accidentally build one too soon.

My main question at this point is how viable rocket fuel and steam would be in general for platforms. If it's just strictly better than solar, that wouldn't be great. Maybe it could have a greatly reduced fuel value when burned in space. We could say it's because although it has its own oxidizer, it just doesn't burn efficiently outside a rocket engine designed specifically for it. Or maybe it should be boilers that are inefficient in a vacuum. Whatever...the point is that it could be tweaked. Then the achievement could be changed to reaching another planet without researching solar, which I think feels better.

[BlueTemplar]

So... make vanilla boilers only 50% efficient again ?

[Panzerknacker]

Well that wouldn't be a problem because Solar output percentage is also different in space and depending on where the platform is located (for example 300% in Nauvis orbit) so then I don't see why the boiler could not have different value in space also.

Boilers in space should not become the meta of course so balancing might need to be done in some way. The setup will be pretty clunky (which we all like ofc) and it will consume water that could be used for the platform's engines instead.

[jdrexler75]

My main question at this point is how viable rocket fuel and steam would be in general for platforms. If it's just strictly better than solar, that wouldn't be great. Maybe it could have a greatly reduced fuel value when burned in space. We could say it's because although it has its own oxidizer, it just doesn't burn efficiently outside a rocket engine designed specifically for it. Or maybe it should be boilers that are inefficient in a vacuum. Whatever...the point is that it could be tweaked. Then the achievement could be changed to reaching another planet without researching solar, which I think feels better.

I think we'd need to really play with it to find out. I doubt it'll be first choice since initially you need to ship in fuel and water, and later you still need to ship in fuel, so compared to solar it'll be much more cumbersome. At that point I think most people would just straight up build the nuclear reactor instead of a dinky boiler.

It could have a niche application for small platforms venturing beyond Gleba but not too far, where solar people is barely viable but a nuclear reactor would be way overpowered.

[BlueTemplar]

Depends if you're going with the original suggestion of only allowing rocket fuel (which feels to me very un-Factorio) or not...
(It's not like the current nuclear fuel makes any realistic sense either, anywhere.)

And since balance is tricky, as usual, the best way for a suggestion to be accepted, is to make a mod (if possible), and then playtest it.

[Panzerknacker]

I think it's perfectly fine if fuels have surface conditions (pressure greater than xx) to be able to burn, similar to how machinery has that right now in order to be placed. If that feels un-Factorio then I will say the same applies to not being able to place a boiler on a space platform.

What we can even implement is the maximum output of the boiler when working with normal fuel (that requires oxygen) to be different according to the surface pressure.

When I have time I will try to make a mod.

[BlueTemplar]

But the condition suggested here is not an environmental one, but rather «rocket fuel only». Why not nuclear fuel (not uranium fuel cell) too, for instance ?

See also :
Allow rocket silos to take a much wider variety of fuels to build rocket parts

[Panzerknacker]

I already replied to that other thread, I don't like the idea of rockets being able to fly on other fuel than rocket fuel, why would there even be rocket fuel in the game then? As I said there, a rocket engine is a very delicate piece of machinery, it will only run on the very specific fuel designed for it. A boiler is a much simpler device, you can burn anything in there that will burn basically, you won't get any benefits from higher-end fuels tho except for the higher fuel density (it lasts longer). I am fine with other fuels being useable in space (0 hPa environment), as long as it makes sense somewhat and as long as it can be balanced. My first thought went to rocket fuel (because it's obvious that it can be used in space), hence the name of the thread.