Feels like certain changes were made to the game 'just because'

[Panzerknacker]

Somehow after reading the FFF's, finding out about certain changes, playing the game a bit (2.0) and looking in the prototypes, I can't help but get the feeling that some changes to the game were made 'just because'. Like for the same reason some players need to have everything lined up perfectly, same color, just because.

Why did you have to change Tier 3 modules to take 4 Tier 2 modules instead of 5, was it a really thoughtful balance change or was it only because Tier 2 modules also require 4 Tier 1 modules and it seemed more 'logical' for it to be the same?

Same stuff with the fluid system, because it behaves a little odd sometimes it needs to go. And even burner inserter needs to be able to filter items, just because the others are able to. Expensive mode had to go at all costs, because it was 'odd' the way it worked, it didn't 'line up' with the rest of the code. Oil processing needs to unlock after you gathered oil, (why would you gather oil without anything to use it for?) because that's the way it lines up with the other triggered technologies.

To me it seems like some of the devs really like things to 'line up', just because. Changing things just for that sake, taking away the rough edges of the game.

But it's those rough edges that make a game feel organic in some way, make it stand out. I have seen the same happing to many other games and it was not for the better. Also I think these changes are not logical at all for new players, the burner inserter for example is now a pretty complex machine with many options to configure instead of a straightforward early game item.

I hope I'm wrong and that all of these changes were made from a pure gameplay/immersion perspective

[astroshak]

The triggered techs in 2.0 just seem weird. Smelt 50 iron ore into iron plate to unlock steam engines, boilers, and offshore pumps? Smelt 10 copper ore into copper plate to unlock electronic circuits?

Yes, its stuff you are going to do anyway. Good luck launching a rocket (or completing space age) before you smelt 10 copper ore or 50 iron ore. That those are triggered techs just seems arbitrary.

Unlocking the Steel Axe (faster personal mining and entity removal) for creating so many Steel Plates at least makes some kind of sense. In this case, it is less a “researched technology” and more a “perk of making steel plate”. This is the ONLY 2.0 triggered tech that makes sense to me.

Automatically getting refineries and chem plants just for powering a pumpjack on an oil splotch makes little sense to me though. If you dont know what you can do with it, why would you even pump it out of the ground? At least with Uranium Ore it could be argued that the engineer did not know they would need to refine it until it has been mined. But again, why would you mine something you dont need?

I have been playing 2.0, with Quality and the Elevated Rail, but not Space Age active. So I dont know what kind of trigger techs are available on the other planets. I just find these five Nauvis triggered techs to be far more “miss” than “hit”.

[Koub]

I like the concept of trigger tech in general, but for new materials (oil, ...) I think it wouls have been better to trigger them by discovering (visually or via radar) a patch of them, instead of mining/extracting some of them.
Like : see some oil, => unlock the research for building a pumpjack. See some uranium => unlock what's needed to mine some.

For the rest of @OP's post, I'm a "just because" guy, so this feels usually satisfying when things perfectly line up (but I do understand the organic feel of having nothing line up). One thing I will never regret is the old fluid system. I hated its unpredictability.

What I understood about the expensive mode, is also that it was too much dev time to balance it carefully.I wouldn't be surprised in the future, when the dust will have settled, seeing one of the devs just getting interested in the subject, and adding it (like Twinsen did for the switch version). I'm not from Wube though, so don't take what I say as a promise. In the meanwhile, if a mod maker gets interested in that, that' even better.

[EustaceCS]

Nice exercise in hypocrisy.

Same stuff with the fluid system, because it behaves a little odd sometimes it needs to go.

If, somehow, you've missed actual explanation - you can get a fix here: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-430
Catch up on previous issues of this story arc here: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-416

Oil processing needs to unlock after you gathered oil, (why would you gather oil without anything to use it for?) because that's the way it lines up with the other triggered technologies.

It does already, no?
What's the problem you're trying to solve or, at least, voice?

Why did you have to change Tier 3 modules to take 4 Tier 2 modules instead of 5, was it a really thoughtful balance change or was it only because Tier 2 modules also require 4 Tier 1 modules and it seemed more 'logical' for it to be the same?

Ten steps forward, nine steps backward.
Are you trying to tell us that making stuff cheaper is bad or that making balance changes is bad?
What's the real problem here?
Is this a bigger problem than some automation feature which don't automatize anything unless you fulfil hidden conditions? Bigger than lack of Switch port of DLC? Bigger than price in... oh, wait, it has been fixed successfully.
Still, you probably got my point.
I know I'm grumpy and tend to overreact to insignificant stuff - but this one really takes the cake. You outperformed me.

And even burner inserter needs to be able to filter items, just because the others are able to.

Earlier this season: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-393 , from "Goodbye filter inserters" onwards.
Is it "just because"?

[Panzerknacker]

Somehow after reading the FFF's

@EustaceCS:
I don't think I need to spend more time replying to you.

@Koub
I already have a Marathon mod up and running, it's not 100% complete yet but that's maybe a few more hours work. So now that it turns out I can even do it myself I have even less understanding for the fact that there is no official Marathon mod for 2.0.

[EustaceCS]

Somehow after reading the FFF's

@EustaceCS:
I don't think I need to spend more time replying to you.

You just did.

Developers put effort into writing weekly explanation behind specific design choices.
It would be nice to know what specifically do you think was not covered enough in FFFs I quoted in regard to questions you raised.
Non-FFF specific question still stands as well.

If you're really desperate to... how is it called in English... try to cash in a "just because" bill, Hearts of Iron IV started offering genuine opportunities for this recently.
Sample included.

[jamiechi1]

I like the concept of trigger tech in general, but for new materials (oil, ...) I think it wouls have been better to trigger them by discovering (visually or via radar) a patch of them, instead of mining/extracting some of them.
Like : see some oil, => unlock the research for building a pumpjack. See some uranium => unlock what's needed to mine some.

For the rest of @OP's post, I'm a "just because" guy, so this feels usually satisfying when things perfectly line up (but I do understand the organic feel of having nothing line up). One thing I will never regret is the old fluid system. I hated its unpredictability.

What I understood about the expensive mode, is also that it was too much dev time to balance it carefully.I wouldn't be surprised in the future, when the dust will have settled, seeing one of the devs just getting interested in the subject, and adding it (like Twinsen did for the switch version). I'm not from Wube though, so don't take what I say as a promise. In the meanwhile, if a mod maker gets interested in that, that' even better.

I do not care much for the 'trigger tech', but I don't hate it either. And I like the new fluid system as well.

I do like the removal of the Expensive Mode. It made it harder to write code when making a mod. I really hope it never comes back.
And in my over 5000 hours playing the game, I have never enabled Expensive Mode. I have no use for it.

[Panzerknacker]

I like the concept of trigger tech in general, but for new materials (oil, ...) I think it wouls have been better to trigger them by discovering (visually or via radar) a patch of them, instead of mining/extracting some of them.
Like : see some oil, => unlock the research for building a pumpjack. See some uranium => unlock what's needed to mine some.

For the rest of @OP's post, I'm a "just because" guy, so this feels usually satisfying when things perfectly line up (but I do understand the organic feel of having nothing line up). One thing I will never regret is the old fluid system. I hated its unpredictability.

What I understood about the expensive mode, is also that it was too much dev time to balance it carefully.I wouldn't be surprised in the future, when the dust will have settled, seeing one of the devs just getting interested in the subject, and adding it (like Twinsen did for the switch version). I'm not from Wube though, so don't take what I say as a promise. In the meanwhile, if a mod maker gets interested in that, that' even better.

I do not care much for the 'trigger tech', but I don't hate it either. And I like the new fluid system as well.

I do like the removal of the Expensive Mode. It made it harder to write code when making a mod. I really hope it never comes back.
And in my over 5000 hours playing the game, I have never enabled Expensive Mode. I have no use for it.

Why does it make writing a mod harder? Afaik if you don't define normal or expensive at all, it simply works in both modes. There is literally nothing harder about it.

[jamiechi1]

I guess what mostly made it harder, was the inconsistency. Some items used normal and expensive. Some items did not.

[spacedog]

The trigger techs make sense for the very start of the tech tree. They're all things you're required to do anyway to get power production and red science going. If they also help ease new players into the game, then all the better.

The trigger techs later on are just in the way. The one for oil in particular is awful. It's muscle memory for me to enqueue all the oil/plastic/circuit techs for blue science, then start working on building up the production lines for that while it's researching. Now there's a hard interrupt in the middle of it, because I have to drop what I'm doing and go build, power, and run a pumpjack as soon as it's done researching to get the labs working again.

It's not the end of the world, but it's annoying and adds nothing helpful to the game. Anyone who manages to understand the game well enough to get blue science production up and running doesn't need that kind of handholding anymore. It's like the devs added the trigger tech feature, then felt like it was going to waste if it only got used for a couple things at the start of the tech tree or by mods, and stuck it a bunch of other places 'just because'.

[shopt]

I think I agree. The trigger techs solved a problem on the new planets, then they retrofitted it to early game, oil, and uranium. In early game it's pretty much cosmetic (and maybe helps guide first time players a bit), but I agree it does seem annoying with the oil and uranium triggers. I don't hate it, but I never feel excited running out to set up a mine/pumpjack that's useless until I do more research. It is more "realistic" that you can't research how to process oil/uranium until you have some. Most of the time the devs seem to (correctly IMO) favour gameplay over realism. However I think with the oil and uranium triggers they went realism over gameplay.

I'm sure as players we will adjust by rushing the pumpjack tech. It turns out if you want to be gamey you only need a single pumpjack, solar panel, and power pole to meet the trigger conditions. Uranium is a bit more annoying because of the sulfuric acid.

[Toob84]

I really like the expansion; it is absolutely awesome! Some things will take time to figure out if they are fun in the long term, (like thousands of hours).


But, I really dislike the trigger tech unlocks. I think they restrict gameplay and are super annoying and completely unnecessary, to say it harshly.

For example, if I start a new map and build power a bit away from my base, I might craft power poles and be left with three copper plates. Then, I can’t craft a few red pots while running back to the ore patches? That is so annoying...
Also, why does the lab unlock the red pot instead of the other way around? Crafting a red pot to unlock a lab seems equally logical to me, and since the pot is cheaper, it would be better in my opinion.

Equally unnecessary and restrictive is the oil research. Maybe I research oil, but then I find a big biter nest right next to the oil patch. Now I can’t start building oil while researching bullet damage before heading to the patch? WHY?

I think the trigger tech system was a nice idea, but how it affects gameplay wasn’t properly thought through. It removes so many 'choices' the player can make, and a sandbox game is all about player choice, in my opinion.

There really needs to be an option to disable them in the map settings, similar to the research queue.

[shopt]

For example, if I start a new map and build power a bit away from my base, I might craft power poles and be left with three copper plates. Then, I can’t craft a few red pots while running back to the ore patches? That is so annoying...

That seems incredibly contrived. If that happens, you could just be crafting green circuits instead which you need for your lab. Your red beakers are useless without that lab. Sure the early game unlocks does force some build order changes, but I'm yet to hear of an example where it affects anything on the actual map (instead of which intermediates happen to be sitting uselessly in your inventory).

As for oil/uranium, yes I completely get the annoyance about those ones.

[BlueTemplar]

Also I think these changes are not logical at all for new players, the burner inserter for example is now a pretty complex machine with many options to configure instead of a straightforward early game item.

A new player might not even click on it to see all those options.
It works fine without, regardless.

It also always was in a weird spot in default settings freeplay vanilla, being earlier but more complex than the yellow = electric inserter.

But it's those rough edges that make a game feel organic in some way, make it stand out.

I can see your point, but you also have to consider that the number of edges has increased considerably for the Space Age players
(quite literally, as Factorio became «««3D»»» with these multiple surfaces).
So perhaps this module rebalancing is a symptom of Wube trying to make more players see more of the game before they give up.
(And we've been here before.)

[Toob84]

That seems incredibly contrived. If that happens, you could just be crafting green circuits instead which you need for your lab.

Well, it happens to me all the time, actually. Consider that it literally takes a few seconds to craft the green circuits but 15 seconds to craft the beakers. As you say, it’s quite equal in terms of intermediates sitting idle in your inventory, but not equal in terms of time.

And considering you always want to play more Factorio than you have time for, time is the most precious resource in a way.
But my biggest gripe with it is not really that, it’s more about the fact that the possibility and the choice to do it in the order I want has been removed.
If it were an ordinary research stopping it, I wouldn’t really mind, doing research is what Factorio is about. But having to perform a specific action first feels different, to me at least.

But I don’t agree with most of Panzerknacker's other points, though. Change for the sake of smoothing out rough edges isn’t a bad thing, in my opinion. I understand what you mean by “in other games, though.” Many AAA games have actually been completely destroyed by it. But I’ve never seen this dev team make that mistake before. Most changes so far end up being for the better, I think. (except for the trigger techs )

I was hesitant about the fluid system change at first, actually. But when building pipes before I always felt I needed to optimize for UPS. Now, it actually feels nice placing pipes, like I can place as many as I want, pipes everywhere!!! hehe
But if you really liked playing with the flow mechanics, I understand that you could miss it.

[shopt]

That seems incredibly contrived. If that happens, you could just be crafting green circuits instead which you need for your lab.

Well, it happens to me all the time, actually. Consider that it literally takes a few seconds to craft the green circuits but 15 seconds to craft the beakers.

That's a good point. Though how often are you restarting the game such that this has become an "all the time" occurrence? I suspect for most players this ends up costing them a minute or so over a multi-hour playthrough.

[MisterDoctor]

Why did you have to change Tier 3 modules to take 4 Tier 2 modules instead of 5, was it a really thoughtful balance change or was it only because Tier 2 modules also require 4 Tier 1 modules and it seemed more 'logical' for it to be the same?

is it not because they added new Space Age ingredients to them? So they reduced the old ingredients to keep the overall cost roughly the same? Just a guess, I did not check the math.

The triggered techs in 2.0 just seem weird.

I agree; they made sense on paper but something about it is weird and unsatisfying in practice. It doesn't really feel like they are earned, or something. Maybe they should also have to be researched and the trigger is to unlock the ability to research them? I'm not sure if that would be better or not.

[shopt]

It seems that the early game triggers aren't really slowing down the speedrunners. The current 1.1 steelaxe WR is 8m23s, in 2.0 it's 6m51s. Of course most of that is because steelaxe is now triggered by producing steel instead of red beakers. Even so, in the 1.1 WR speedrun automation research is done by 4:19, while in 2.0 it's done by 4:01. So while "annoying" is a subjective judgement, the early game tech changes don't seem to be objectively slowing early game progress. Of course researching steelaxe is not the game, so we would need to see how the any% or GOTLAP speedruns stabilize before any firm conclusions can be drawn.

[nzer]

I don't think speedruns are the right metric here. The complaint is really about the play experience being awkward, not about it being literally slower.

[shopt]

It may not be "the" complaint, but it definitely is "a" complaint from at least one person in this thread. Honestly from watching early game runs the main change seems to be that people craft the lab before the red beakers instead of the other way around.