Early Game on Rails

[vampiricdust]

I have barely started the game and I'm already hating Space Age. Why is early game on rails? What sense does it make to unlock technology by smelting plates? How is that "research"? I think you guys have jumped the shark on this holding player's hand angle. Seriously, I would rather you give me pop ups and just leave the early game how it was, why break what wasn't broken? Now I'm annoyed that instead of having to do science packs, I'm going to have do random arbitrary crap to progress that has nothing to do with the research system at all.

This would be like making characters eat a sandwich to enable reloading their gun or making them open a door before they're allowed to take a drink of water.

There's a complete disconnect between what the "research" system is and how it's being used. I really cannot understand why this decision was made, it really serves zero purpose. You cannot make a lab without having copper plates and with startup mods, I might start up with copper plates, so why the hell do I need to smelt something I already have? What logic is behind this besides pointless treating your players like drooling idiots?

Dude, where the hell has Wube's development standards gone? Did you guys make the Q&A manager project manager of Factorio? It's a really bad decision that's killing my enjoyment of this game from the first minute I'm playing. I'm going to hope there's an option to disable this crap, if it needs a mod, then shame on Wube.

EDIT: And there isn't. Dude, I love this game, but I have to say the company has taken things the wrong direction with this. It's a very arrogant way to treat your players, IMO. Now I don't want to play anymore because whatever random stupid hoops you guys going to make me jump through to do normal game play stuff? Please just add a "New Player" or "dumbass drooling idiot" mode instead.

[vampiricdust]

Having to craft copper plates to unlock lab? 0/10

Stop treating players like idiots. You have to have copper to build a lab, why make it an arbitrary requirement and hiding the lab from players? Great way to piss off a player in the first 5 minutes of game, I've got over 10,000 hours in game but now I have 0 interest in playing a game that is going to make me "research" by jumping through random hoops while ignoring an entire game mechanic specifically built to research and unlock technology. At least make it related, what the hell is wrong with Wube?

If you're going to do that, just take out labs and research packs all together. Make up your damn minds. Both is just lazy incompetence. What, am I going to have to eat a fish to enable weapons for 30 seconds? Will I have run in circles for a minute to speed up my furnaces? Just keep things logical.

[orangep9]

The resource progression added into the research tree is slightly strange but in normal gameplay you shouldn't even notice it. If you have a mod that skips part of the early game you should also use a mod to remove the resource requirements, I'm sure one will be available quickly. Playing the game vanilla those steps are literally required to progress. There is no reason for Wube to modify the base game to fit the progression of your mods.

It seems like you might be going through something tough so I hope things look up for you.

[Sopenas]

I was caught by surprise a bit too, but actually i do not mind change. Just that i did not expect this and did not understood that some technologies are researched differently. And needed to actually look into research tree and see what is locked behind what and what i need to do to research it.

[Kyralessa]

I don't mind the change. I think it's fine.

[Muche]

Please read about reasons for these trigger technologies in FFF#376, and the associated thread 108725.

[Koub]

The game is not designed specifically for people with 10k+ hours of experience. Unlocking more progressively stuff as you get the prerequisites you would have had to build anyway doesn't change anything for the experienced player, all while helping the very new player with the "what to do next ?" situation. I'm OK with the general philosophy at least.

[GhostPirate]

Sounds like you're just upset that your startup mod hasn't been updated yet to remove those resource requirements.

It also sounds like something else is bothering you, and this just tipped you over the edge, so I encourage some introspection.

I also recommend playing a base vanilla game before you start playing with Mods, as you may have different feelings about the research tree. I, for one, find it quite engaging - and the technologies are unlocked by the things I am already doing, so it's like "free" research. Besides, some future ones feel very natural, like discovering oil as the trigger for learning oil processing.

[Koub]

[Koub] did some moderation here :
- merged the post from the release FFF thread in this thread, alongside with the reply I did
- moved the whole thread in General discussion from Ideas and suggestions (no suggestions formulated)
Feel free to discuss the subject here, but remember : everyone stays chill and respectful.

[vampiricdust]

The game is not designed specifically for people with 10k+ hours of experience. Unlocking more progressively stuff as you get the prerequisites you would have had to build anyway doesn't change anything for the experienced player, all while helping the very new player with the "what to do next ?" situation. I'm OK with the general philosophy at least.

It doesn't matter how many hours I have, I still don't like the mechanic and think it's bad game design. You're pointlessly locking items at the early game when there is 0 reason do so. Now I have to wait for 50 plates of each to craft before I start progressing, again Wube forcing a playstyle on players. It doesn't matter how many hours you have, the issue is there is only 1 way to progress and this increasingly forces you to do it the way the developers deem acceptable while making gameplay hostile to anyone else. It doesn't take 50 iron and 50 copper to make a lab, it's a meaningless ask that teaches player to sit around waiting or wondering what they should do. Yeah, I know to scale up, but I don't want to scale up burner miners when I can just skimp to electric. That's how I like to play. If that's not intended, then do it properly instead of making a whole different technology unlock mechanic. What a waste of time and money.

Go ahead and ignore me because you already got my money, but I'm telling it's a stupid part of the game that was a waste of time to implement. Yeah, it doesn't ruin the game, but I'm completely annoyed because it's 100% hand holding and adds nothing of value to the game. It doesn't help anyone with anything at all. How stupid does a player have to be to need to be able to craft something before they even know what they need it for?

Don't change it, it's fine that Wube treats players like morons, but I am going to voice my view and give a negative review towards the game. It's increasingly becoming a different game than what it was for years and this change is just the mascot of what has turned me off from Factorio. I still love the game, but I wish Wube would find better uses of developer time than adding pointless mechanics that only further complicate an already complex game.

If you give a valid reason why this mechanic was added besides someone thought players needed to be told to make iron and copper plates, fine, but I see no reason why Wube continues to place increasing restrictions on freeplay. Why can't this be a separate mode than freeplay? Why is freeplay so restrictive? You don't give any other option than making scenarios. Why call it freeplay while calling it tutorial? which is it? Even then, I can't get around this without mods or coding a scenario. For a game that was all about player freedom, I feel like there is no freedom left in Space Age.

[Kyralessa]

But how do you really feel?

Have you quantified exactly how much these requirements delay your game vs. having to craft science for them instead?

Anyway probably somebody will write a mod to change it back.

It's OK not to like a change, but I'm puzzled at why you need to express it so bombastically, as though Wube has completely destroyed your life.

[Koub]

Now I have to wait for 50 plates of each to craft before I start progressing, again Wube forcing a playstyle on players. It doesn't matter how many hours you have, the issue is there is only 1 way to progress and this increasingly forces you to do it the way the developers deem acceptable while making gameplay hostile to anyone else. It doesn't take 50 iron and 50 copper to make a lab, it's a meaningless ask that teaches player to sit around waiting or wondering what they should do.

I would agree with you that the automatic tech trigger should happen before an arbitrary threshold, ideally at a point you HAVE to get through no matter what. Probably at the first copper plate or so : there is no point in having access to science lab crafting when one hasn't at least one of the raw resources needed to get to it.

[Muche]

If you give a valid reason why this mechanic was added besides someone thought players needed to be told to make iron and copper plates, fine, but I see no reason why Wube continues to place increasing restrictions on freeplay. Why can't this be a separate mode than freeplay? Why is freeplay so restrictive? You don't give any other option than making scenarios. Why call it freeplay while calling it tutorial? which is it? Even then, I can't get around this without mods or coding a scenario. For a game that was all about player freedom, I feel like there is no freedom left in Space Age.

I first encountered triggered technologies when playing Seablock.
In it, you start with some limited supplies of plates etc., enough to craft the machines needed to start producing them. Then you gradually unlock more recipes.
Imagine what would happen, if you're able to craft a lab even at the start. You might misclick some recipe and spend limited plates. Now you are locked. You can't craft that one crucial machine to start the loop. You have to restart the save.
What experience does that create for a new player?

Other reasons are to curb the feeling of overwhelm from too many recipes, and reward the player for doing the right thing more frequently.

[Joe Black]

I have barely started the game and I'm already hating Space Age. Why is early game on rails? What sense does it make to unlock technology by smelting plates? How is that "research"? I think you guys have jumped the shark on this holding player's hand angle. Seriously, I would rather you give me pop ups and just leave the early game how it was, why break what wasn't broken? Now I'm annoyed that instead of having to do science packs, I'm going to have do random arbitrary crap to progress that has nothing to do with the research system at all.

This would be like making characters eat a sandwich to enable reloading their gun or making them open a door before they're allowed to take a drink of water.

There's a complete disconnect between what the "research" system is and how it's being used. I really cannot understand why this decision was made, it really serves zero purpose. You cannot make a lab without having copper plates and with startup mods, I might start up with copper plates, so why the hell do I need to smelt something I already have? What logic is behind this besides pointless treating your players like drooling idiots?

Dude, where the hell has Wube's development standards gone? Did you guys make the Q&A manager project manager of Factorio? It's a really bad decision that's killing my enjoyment of this game from the first minute I'm playing. I'm going to hope there's an option to disable this crap, if it needs a mod, then shame on Wube.

EDIT: And there isn't. Dude, I love this game, but I have to say the company has taken things the wrong direction with this. It's a very arrogant way to treat your players, IMO. Now I don't want to play anymore because whatever random stupid hoops you guys going to make me jump through to do normal game play stuff? Please just add a "New Player" or "dumbass drooling idiot" mode instead.

Ich stehe genau auf diesen neuen Features. Das frühe Spiel ist nun wirklich ein Spiel, bevor man loslegen kann. Früher war es unlogisch und nur eine Muss Arbeit, bevor man loslegen konnte. Jetzt muss man wirklich spielen um etwas zu erreichen. Gratuliere dem Team!
Die Idee mit den Gegenständen in der Forschung ist logisch und bietet ein echtes Simulation-Erlebnis. Dürfte ruhig auch mehr Anwendung finden!

I really like these new features. The early game is now really a game before you can get started. It used to be illogical and just a must-do before you could get started. Now you really have to play to achieve something. Congratulations to the team!
The idea with the items is logical and offers a real simulation experience. It could definitely be used more often!

[Kyralessa]

I really like these new features. The early game is now really a game before you can get started. It used to be illogical and just a must-do before you could get started. Now you really have to play to achieve something.

Congratulations to the team!

The idea with the items is logical and offers a real simulation experience. It could definitely be used more often!

Agreed; if anything I think the game could use more such triggers. Without these, it's just science pack, science pack, science pack.

An add-on mod to IR3 has this sort of thing also, as "inspiration," and I'm glad to see it in the Factory expansion now.

As for this vampiricdust guy, can we get him a refund? I don't think anything else is going to cool his anger. (The refund probably won't either, but at least then he'll have nothing to complain about.)

[BlueTemplar]

Also, thanks no thanks for polluting the search results for tchoo-tchoo related discussions.

[Panzerknacker]

I like some of the changes. For example putting Electric mining drills and Radars behind research I like, before it made no sense to use burners because you would simply move to Electric within 5 minutes. Some other things I don't like. Having to smelt copper to see the lab appear in the crafting screen makes not much sense imo, what is the difference. Before you would see the lab in the crafting window, notice that it needs copper so you would go and find copper. Now you need to press the technology screen and find the right research to see how to get it. The new method feels more arbitrary. Also the thing with Steam power, just smelting a few plates hardly makes any sense to me, what does it have to do with Steam.

The worst one is oil imo, you research a pumpjack but for what, why would you need oil. In 1.1, you would immediately also get the Solid fuel recipe with it so you actually had a reason to go and find oil.

What is extremely strange also is how on Vanilla Factorio 2.0 they removed the 8K science (on Marathon) research for Space science packs, giving it for free now with the Rocket silo, it unlocks when you just send one satelite to space.

[utetwo]

This feels really dramatic. I didn't even care about the trigger technologies. They just happened within the first hour of the game.

[MeduSalem]

I think the triggered-techs are okay. But then again I also knew that they were coming from reading the related FF past year so it did not catch me by surprise.


What is worth a discussion and what might be in for a little balancing is probably the amount of items that need to be crafted to trigger certain things. Because what I agree with is that for a few of the things I progressed faster than the trigger threshold; so I sat around idling a bit waiting for it to happen.

But that said, I cannot really quantize it because since it has been a while since my last early game play-through I also sat there thinking "meh I am out of touch" and did some horrifying inefficient setups too that definitely already cost me waaaay more time in progression than waiting for the few trigger-researches. xD

[Resand]

having to mine oil, before I can build the refineries are annoying as hell. Since setting up the oil outpost is the last step in getting oil up and running, not the first