Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

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Jagura
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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by Jagura »

After reading the devs' latest post, I feel like the solution of growing metals directly through bacteria seems a bit rough and superficial. I wanted to see a more elegant and unique approach that would better fit the game's atmosphere and mechanics. Here are a few ideas that came to mind.
Main concept: Bioelectrolysis (or suggest a better name)
The idea involves using two types of bacteria: one that breaks down iron and another that processes copper. These bacteria work efficiently in special bio-liquids, which the player pumps into a bioreactor, mixing with the appropriate bacteria.

Once the bacteria dissolve the metals, the solution becomes saturated with them. This metal-rich bacterial solution can then be transported via pipes—similar to the system on Vulcanus, where molten metal is moved for further processing. However, the key difference here is that on Gleba, you can use these solutions to grow complex items(such as manipulators or even more).
Concentration levels and their impact
Each level of metal concentration increases the amount of metal in the solution, but achieving higher levels requires new technologies and adjustments to the bio-catalysis process.

- Level 1: Basic solution with minimal concentration.
- Level 2: A new bacterial catalyst is introduced into the solution, increasing the metal concentration.
- Level 3: To stimulate bio-catalysis, a heat source is added alongside the bacterial catalyst.

This system presents an interesting alternative to Vulcanus. While Gleba's production process is more complex, it could prove to be more advantageous for crafting complex metal items.
Solving the metal shortage problem
We could also elegantly address the issue of metal scarcity at the start of the game. For instance, players could extract metals from lakes or fossil deposits (suggest a better option) formed by bacteria. These bacteria have been consuming metals on Gleba’s surface for centuries, storing them within their organisms. Players would use these bacteria to extract metals from natural sources, resolving the resource shortage early in the game.
Biofabricators, concentrations and the creation of complex components
Unlike Vulcanus, where molten metal is used to create basic components, on Gleba, biofabricators (in addition to basic materials) will be able to create complex mechanisms directly from the solutions, provided the recipe consists only of metal components. This will take more time, but it allows players to skip several steps of the standard production chain.

This approach offers variety in terms of choosing technological processes. While it may be easier to grow complex items on Gleba, the production of basic components would take too long, making it more efficient to produce them on Vulcanus.

Additionally, biofabricators could have a limited growth chamber for the solution they use when creating a single item. This means that more complex items would require more metal, but since the chamber is limited in size, players would need to use solutions with higher concentrations. As a result, crafting intricate items would necessitate more advanced bio-catalysis processes, encouraging players to upgrade their production chain to achieve higher concentration levels in the solutions.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by yngndrw »

XT-248 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 4:40 am
yngndrw wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 2:13 am
Speaking of testers, please be aware that the content/press embargo ends on the 14th October, so if you want to avoid spoilers please keep it in mind as there are no restrictions on what they can show.
Is that the intended release date? :o
October 21st is the release date.

October 14th is when people can start talking or show Space Age content that hasn't been revealed as part of an FFF.
Ahh thank you, that's a shame then - I wish they'd set their end of embargo date to the 21st to minimise the impact of spoilers.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by datkensign »

CyberCider wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:45 am
datkensign wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:29 am
The new science lab has an output...

Why does it have an output?
To remove spoilage in case lime science spoils
Sensible answer. Not as exciting as I thought it might be.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by sarge945 »

As much as I love the gameplay of this, I can't help but lament the loss of the really nice "synthetic spawner" graphics. The sickly-yellow pulsating spawner looked positively disgusting, in a really awesome way.

The blog post does say we will eventually be able to craft the captured biter spawners, but AFAIK these will be like the original captured ones, not the sick looking synthetic ones.

I would hate to see these graphics go to waste as it looks awesome. I do wish there was a way to re-use the "synthetic spawner" graphics somehow, or even use them in-place of the new ones for our crafted nests, even if it doesn't technically make sense as I assume they can "go wild" again if not maintained properly, unlike the original synthetic spawner.
Last edited by sarge945 on Sat Oct 05, 2024 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by CheeseMcBurger »

Only two more weeks! TWO WEEKS! LEEETSS GOOOOOO!!!

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by Ohz »

This is crazy crazy cool, thank you so much for your amazing work
I'm not english, sorry for my mistakes

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by Dragon_0_0_0 »

hatchery? to hatch eggs and build an army?

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by half a cat »

Jagura wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:57 am
The idea involves using two types of bacteria: one that breaks down iron and another that processes copper. These bacteria work efficiently in special bio-liquids, which the player pumps into a bioreactor, mixing with the appropriate bacteria.
This sounds like bioleaching.

I liked how Nullius integrated biology into industry. Industry needs high volumes of simple chemicals like methanol (in lubricant) and glycerol (in explosives) that are initially synthesized in chemical plants and later produced from organisms.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by KeithFromCanada »

Honestly, I wouldn't allow players to build the Biolab anywhere they want. Instead, make it an upgrade to a captured spawner and require it to still need to receive regular doses of Bioflux to keep it from devolving/going rogue. That would require players to set up a transport network to each one/group, instead of being able to build them wherever is convenient for the player.

It would also make capturing a group of them--to reduce the player's logistic headache--MUCH more difficult. (Unless the player keeps the undivided attention of defenders, they will turn on the capture robots and destroy them.) Players would have to carefully coordinate a capture mission to send in the bots and then--VERY quickly--draw out the defenders and keep them occupied while capturing takes place. (Player forces will, of course, need to not attack any spawner that has had a capture bot target painted on it.)

Does that sound reasonable?

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by Necronium »

XT-248 wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:38 pm
Necronium wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:31 pm
GregoriusT wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:04 pm
EustaceCS wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 5:04 pm
7 Factorio 1.0 science packs. + 4 planet-specific from new planets.
But biolab showcase features 12 types of science packs.
Or I'm getting colorblind due to old age...
The 12th Type MIGHT be the spoiled bioscience pack
12th science is endgame science as white is in current version of Factorio
The seven science packs figure already counts space science.

Red/Automation is the first one.
Green/Logistics is the second one.
Black/Military is the third one.
Blue/Chemical is the fourth one.
Purple/Production is the fifth one.
Yellow/Utility is the sixth one.
White/Space is the seventh one.

Plus, there are four new science packs from the four new worlds.

That leaves one unaccounted for.
What do you talking about? For over a year we know that we will get 12 sci pack. As Ive said white science is switched from endgame sci pack to Nauvis related due to Uranium. They give us one new sci pack per planet + additonal that is new end game sci pack which is replacing white in that matter.
New ones are:
8) Orange for Vulcanus
9) Pink for Fulgora
10) Lime for Gleba
11) Dark blue for Aquilo
12) Black for Endgame

We knew all colors as far as June FFF and 12 sci pack HD version was with Space Age release date FFF

The new thing is that its first time when we see them all in high quality picture

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by bnrom »

I want a space greenhouse! It makes sense that the engineer should be able to grow Gleba plants in space and other planets.

I wouldn't mind it being super expensive and locked behind end-game tech, but I want it!

You could have the green house require rock, sulfur and a carbon source, and then the Gleba unlock would be a new way to process resources on other planets.
Last edited by bnrom on Sun Oct 06, 2024 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by XT-248 »

Necronium wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2024 1:32 am
XT-248 wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:38 pm
Necronium wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:31 pm
12th science is endgame science as white is in current version of Factorio
The seven science packs figure already counts space science.

Red/Automation is the first one.
Green/Logistics is the second one.
Black/Military is the third one.
Blue/Chemical is the fourth one.
Purple/Production is the fifth one.
Yellow/Utility is the sixth one.
White/Space is the seventh one.

Plus, there are four new science packs from the four new worlds.

That leaves one unaccounted for.
What do you talking about? For over a year we know that we will get 12 sci pack. As Ive said white science is switched from endgame sci pack to Nauvis related due to Uranium. They give us one new sci pack per planet + additonal that is new end game sci pack which is replacing white in that matter.
New ones are:
8) Orange for Vulcanus
9) Pink for Fulgora
10) Lime for Gleba
11) Dark blue for Aquilo
12) Black for Endgame

We knew all colors as far as June FFF and 12 sci pack HD version was with Space Age release date FFF

The new thing is that its first time when we see them all in high quality picture
I believe they have already shown the shiny black science packs (for lack of a better phrase) there and then in teases in earlier FFF only two times so far.

You can see it among white science packs on the convey belt sections right just below the Space Age words. From the announcement of the release date blog: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-418.

Image

When I first spot those science packs. I thought those were military science packs with a new black texture until I double-checked in-game to confirm they had a different black texture than the original military science packs.

Hypothetically speaking, they could be a military tier 2, if you will, version of the original military packs. In contrast, the final world's science pack would be the end-game packs (after all, #431 expressed that the technologies to craft your own captive biter spawn base are gated behind the final world packs).

The reverse could be also true. The final world's packs are second to last, and another higher tier of science pack (shiny black) is gated behind something that has yet to be revealed.


Also, the Space Age FFF series started in August 2023 (it happened close to my birthday, so I know the date well due to that). Not June 2023. We can only see new packs: Orange/Vulcanis, Green/Gleba, and Maroon/Fulgora. There was a mention of a fourth science pack that is unlocked at the final world. That comes up to a total of 11 known/announced science packs in August 2023.


https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/img/blo ... maller.png - The direct link to the picture doesn't play well with the IMG tag. Just click on it.

Source: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-373 - Click on this link, then go to the main structure section in the FFF.


There was no mention of a 12th science pack (I checked FFFs from #373 to #431; those two were the only instances I could find the shiny black science packs in pictures but not mentioned).

Between FFF pictures-only #431 and #418 teasers, we know next to nothing about the shiny black science packs. We will find out more about it once the game is out.


I would advocate against making assumptions about what it is used for unless you are one of those invited to the Space Age LAN Party recently, have access to Space Age Expansion, or know something we shouldn't.
Last edited by XT-248 on Sun Oct 06, 2024 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by mmmPI »

For the color of the science pack associated with the planet Fulgora. It seem unlikely that it would be the orange, much more likely than it would be the pink one.

There was quite the picture of Fulgora revealed and the floor there was pink-ish. Whereas the orange science pack is reminiscent of the lava, placed under the planet that look volcanic, and as such to me is shown as the science pack for Vulcanus.

I also think it's only if you don't know what it is used for that you can make assumptions, otherwise if you have accesss to space age or were at the LAN party or something, then you are not making an assumption. It's the opposite, only if have no information can you make assumptions, or wild hypothesis which are funny to read like military tier 2 science pack why not ?, or maybe space tier 2 science pack more likely ? =)

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by BrainlessTeddy »

drugs, it does sound like drugs. and I cant wait to get my hands on em. the labs I mean... Don't do drugs!
Please consider english is not my native language.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by picklock »

I think the new laboratory is good. Is its lifespan actually finite? After all, it is a living being. By the way, I don't think the work in progress graphic is bad at all.

Generating ores by cultivating bacteria is an interesting approach. It shows me once again how creative you developers are. However, the production chain to obtain the ores looks much more complex than obtaining ores through miners. But well, other planets, other methods.
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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by usafphoenix »

It may have already been mentioned, but the crux of the issues as I've heard/read about/inferred boils down to "when I'm presented the decision of which planet to visit, which one has the most compelling rewards I can use right away? vs "which planets rewards aren't as useful RIGHT NOW but are still really awesome and i'll get that eventually" ? Which planet will benefit me the most at the current stage of my factories?

Vulcanus providees the foundry, liquifying metals and casting plate at a built in 50% productivity = instantly useful and scales the production chain from the BASE level (smelting) all the way up.

Fulgora provides the EM plant, mass producing circuits and modules with a 50% productivity = instantly useful and scales the production chain up again, basically from the bottom at the circuit level. But unlike the foundry, The EM plant has a multiplicative nature that you can run a production chain through it MULTIPLE times...arguably making it BETTER than the foundry. But since modules are more of a mid/late game aspect, it still leaves me, personally thinking: Do vulcanus first, then Fulgora, and then....whatever Gleba has to offer....go get that.

Gleba's addition of the lab with a 50% consumption (which although is similar to 100% productivity, it really isn't the same..) is certainly a worthy reward of the complexities involved with gleba's spoilling mechanic and the consequences for failure to sort out the eggs "in time" ...i think. But i still don't think it necessarily solves the above-mentioned issue of there being an obvious choice of whether to do Gleba 1st, 2nd, or 3rd? I think it still remains that Gleba is 3rd choice.

As an exmaple of consumption bonus vs productivity bonus: The big miner has a 50% consumption bonus, making ore patches last longer. That really only means that you have a longer time the patch will be active and have to move less frequently, it doesn't provide "more productivity" whereas the foundry and the EM plant give you 3 items for every 2 crafts. Likewise, the new lab uses HALF as much science. Really useful, sure....but not so much in the beginning stage of the game (from my POV)

A lab that you must CAPTURE, MAINTAIN, and Resolve/Defend against rogue incursions of biters (until you reach the final planet, and unlock the craftable version that you can place wherever you want) all means the logistic and consequences attached to Gleba's "reward" STILL have a later-game appeal. Since Space travel gets unlocked at the blue science level, at which point a base is probably only producing 30-60 science/minute, and the researches at that stage aren't that costly a tier 2 lab that reduces the packs that are CONSUMED isn't as appealing as the other planet's offerings. Though once at the infinite tech stage, a lab that preserves science packs becomes FAR more valued. Infinite techs increase exponentially, so halving their cost makes Gleba's reward UNDENIABLY valuable.....just not valuable in the sense of "I want to visit gleba first"......and i think that's okay. I'm still excited to play.

But this late in the development, i don't think it necessarily needs addressing in the sense that every planet must be equally-compelling and valuable and that having a "clear choice" of which to do first or 2nd or third makes for inherently bad game play. I think that's a flawed argument....eventhough I was one of the people who originally MADE that argument: that....if you are given a choice, but it's presented in a way that makes the choice OBVIOUS/clear.....is the choice really a choice???

"if i offered you a choice of either $5 or $20....would you take the $5?"

:D

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by Niyu.Cuatro »

usafphoenix wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:43 am
A lab that you must CAPTURE, MAINTAIN, and Resolve/Defend against rogue incursions of biters (until you reach the final planet, and unlock the craftable version that you can place wherever you want)
If i understood it correctly, you capture the nests to produce eggs, those are the ones that you need the extra protection. The lab is crafted from said eggs and you just have to craft it and place it wherever you want.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by Upserter »

A captured nest should be tremendously aggravating to biters, who should send continuous streams of biters to attempt to rescue their comrades.

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by CyberCider »

usafphoenix wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:43 am
The big miner has a 50% consumption bonus, making ore patches last longer. That really only means that you have a longer time the patch will be active and have to move less frequently, it doesn't provide "more productivity"…

…a tier 2 lab that reduces the packs that are CONSUMED isn't as appealing as the other planet's offerings.
Increasing production and decreasing consumption both have the exact same effect. They let you make the same output for less input, or more output for the same input. They may sound different, but they both cause the same ratio of input to output.

The only reason the drill and lab have this special other stat instead of a productivity bonus, is because this stat multiplies with productivity instead of adding with it. I’ll explain:
A drill with 4 prod modules produces 1.4 ore per depletion. A drill with +100% productivity and 4 prod modules will produce 2.4 ores for every depletion. While a drill with a 50% depletion reduction and the same 4 modules will produce 1.4 ores for every half of a depletion. Meaning that for a single whole depletion it will produce 2.8 ores, which you can see is more than 2.4.

The drill and lab specifically have this stat because both mining and research have an infinite productivity tech, so it’s important that their special bonus isn’t equated to just a few levels of tech. As you may know, in 1.1, people rarely put productivity modules in miners because the productivity tech exists.

The foundry, EMP and bioab all ultimately serve the same purpose: Increasing your production “for free”. They just do it at different points in the production chain (bottom/middle/top). Picking between these buildings is like deciding where to put productivity modules first (that’s a simplification, of course, but you understand the point).

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Re: Friday Facts #431 - Gleba & Captivity

Post by Grillmax »

spidertron with rocket turret
the wording of this implies that there is more than 1 version of the spidertron, and that would rock as i am a huge advocate for a spidertron with tank turrets, tesla cannon, artillery, etc

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